D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[I'm A Banana]

Mmmm, pumpkin. I'd XP you, but apparently I've done that too recently.

 

[SkidAce]

Mmmm, pumpkin. I'd XP you, but apparently I've done that too recently.

I tried covering you because, well, PIE....but obviously I can't again either.

I feel when pie is involved there should be unlimited xp awards allowed. Or cake.

 

[adamc]

Yugoloths! Yugoloths!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20130507

I didn't like the choices. What I wanted to say was "whatever matches the available miniatures, in terms of looks." (My players don't really look at other artwork.) The lore doesn't matter much; I'll just change it to whatever the campaign requires.

 

[Hussar]

As I said in the other thread, this has gotten away from me and I apologize for that.

I do believe that any core game element needs to be able to justify itself on its own merits, not simply on the fact that it was done a certain way before. Yugoloths hate gods isn't a bad idea. It was one I was totally unaware of to be honest, because it's purely Planescape specific. Heck, it's interesting enough that I'd like to see it in core. At least it makes Yugoloths interesting and more appealing. IMO at least.

I mean, "mercenary demons" is a pretty well filled in niche. EVERY outer planar evil creature is a mercenary, at least from the point of view of anyone on the Prime Material Plane. You summon an evil outer planar creature and what happens? You have to make appropriate sacrifices (pay) and they do what you want (mostly). So, what differentiates a Vrock from a Mezzoloth (mezzodaemon)? Both come into play in exactly the same way.

Planescape at least gives them some differentiation.

Me, I don't really care if the lore comes from Planescape or contradicts Planescape. The problem I have with Planescape lore is that it comes with a metric ton of baggage. It's not enough to just have god hating Yugoloths, but also we have to make sure that they created demons and are the powers behind the powers in a great struggle between Law and Chaos. And on and on and on. This is a level of backstory that really isn't something I want to see in D&D, to be honest. 4e got it wrong by replacing Planescape with its own meta-story. They should have replaced Planescape with... well... nothing. Just some vague hooks and that's about it.

But, that's neither here nor there since I don't see anyone clamoring to keep 4e lore in the game anyway.

In any event, I do truly believe that if a game element cannot be justified by anything other than, "That's what we did yesterday" then that game element has no reason to be in the game.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Why would I get a dragon with a gate spell? Why would I get Undead with a gate spell? I mean, if you're going to get all technical about the mechanics, at least have the decency to read the spell first. It calls an extraplanar creature. Neither dragons nor undead are generally extra-planar.

Careful.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.

No creature type is listed (like, say, Polymorph) for what you can call, they just have to be from off-plane. And, of course, there's no reason to assume that are no dragons off-plane. And, if you use any of many sources, it's definitely said that this is the case.

And, what kind of undead might there be?

Nightwing
Environment: Plane of Shadow

And why would I get it, as a priest of Vecna?

Desecrating Aura (Su)
All nightshades give off a 20-foot radius emanation of utter desecration, imbuing their surroundings with negative energy. This ability works much like a desecrate spell, except that the nightshade’s evil is so great that it is treated as the shrine of an evil power. All undead within 20 feet of the nightshade (including the creature itself) gain a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, and +2 hit points per HD. (The nightshade Hit Dice, attack, and save entries given here include these profane bonuses.) Charisma checks made to turn undead within this area take a -6 penalty.

A nightshade’s desecrating aura cannot be dispelled except by a dispel evil spell or similar effect. If the effect is dispelled, the nightshade can resume it as a free action on its next turn. Its desecrating aura is suppressed if a nightshade enters a consecrated or hallowed area, but the nightshade’s presence also suppresses the consecrated or hallowed effect for as long as it remains in the area.

I don't know, man. If you're going to get snippy,

at least have the decency to read the spell first.

As always, play what you like

 

[I'm A Banana]

I do believe that any core game element needs to be able to justify itself on its own merits, not simply on the fact that it was done a certain way before. Yugoloths hate gods isn't a bad idea. It was one I was totally unaware of to be honest, because it's purely Planescape specific. Heck, it's interesting enough that I'd like to see it in core. At least it makes Yugoloths interesting and more appealing. IMO at least.

I'm with you, man.

I mean, "mercenary demons" is a pretty well filled in niche. EVERY outer planar evil creature is a mercenary, at least from the point of view of anyone on the Prime Material Plane. You summon an evil outer planar creature and what happens? You have to make appropriate sacrifices (pay) and they do what you want (mostly). So, what differentiates a Vrock from a Mezzoloth (mezzodaemon)? Both come into play in exactly the same way.

The difference, as far as the original non-PS version of the critter goes, is that you will not see a vrock and an erinyes working together. You WILL find a vrock and a mezzodemon working together, and you will find an erinyes and a mezzodemon working together. Mezzodemons will work with anyone to forward the cause of evil.

The difference for the PS version of the critter is that when you find a mezzodemon working with your opposition, you suddenly have to wonder whether or not there's something much bigger at work than someone summoning fiends. Mezzodemons are mercenary, and because they're yugoloths, you can be assured that the presence of one is indicative of something non-obvious going on.

Me, I don't really care if the lore comes from Planescape or contradicts Planescape. The problem I have with Planescape lore is that it comes with a metric ton of baggage. It's not enough to just have god hating Yugoloths, but also we have to make sure that they created demons and are the powers behind the powers in a great struggle between Law and Chaos. And on and on and on. This is a level of backstory that really isn't something I want to see in D&D, to be honest. 4e got it wrong by replacing Planescape with its own meta-story. They should have replaced Planescape with... well... nothing. Just some vague hooks and that's about it.

My own view is just that this lore shouldn't be explicitly contradicted. It doesn't have to be mentioned -- the metaplot information, IMO, is not essential to the fun of a yugoloth in any given game (which the entire thread before you got here was dedicated to talking about). However, it's essential to the fun of yugoloths in certain specific games, and since D&D NEXT is supposed to be able to run any particular D&D game, it needs to be able to run a game where this metaplot information is true, without changing what the creature is.

But, that's neither here nor there since I don't see anyone clamoring to keep 4e lore in the game anyway.

I would! But yugoloths don't have much unique lore in 4e. They're demons. So to unify the lore: for a brief time, the yugoloths were only hired by the demons because (some reason, like the Devils suddenly being forbidden from hiring them, or something), perhaps. And in some games, that can still be the case.

In any event, I do truly believe that if a game element cannot be justified by anything other than, "That's what we did yesterday" then that game element has no reason to be in the game.

I agree, but you've gotta realize that this isn't the actual justification in this case, or in most cases. Before you came to the thread, we were busy talking about what DOES justify yugoloths, on their own merits.

And, not for the first time, I feel like I'm asking someone to read and understand what has come before, if they want to give good commentary on where things should go in the future.

 

[pemerton]

My own view is just that this lore shouldn't be explicitly contradicted. It doesn't have to be mentioned -- the metaplot information, IMO, is not essential to the fun of a yugoloth in any given game (which the entire thread before you got here was dedicated to talking about). However, it's essential to the fun of yugoloths in certain specific games, and since D&D NEXT is supposed to be able to run any particular D&D game, it needs to be able to run a game where this metaplot information is true, without changing what the creature is.

<snip>

But yugoloths don't have much unique lore in 4e. They're demons. So to unify the lore: for a brief time, the yugoloths were only hired by the demons because (some reason, like the Devils suddenly being forbidden from hiring them, or something), perhaps. And in some games, that can still be the case.

If "yugoloths" aren't demons, that contradicts the lore in my 4e game according to which (i) they are demons, and (ii) the Wasting Tower is located on the Abyss.

You don't avoid the contradiction by retconning into my game that they were really not demons at all, and just hired by demons.

The genie is out of the bottle. People are running games in which lore - including lore they took from TSR/WotC books - contradicts the Planescape lore. Choices have to be made about what is the best version of any given creature to present, and a principle of consistency with existing lore is not going to make those choices for us.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If "yugoloths" aren't demons, that contradicts the lore in my 4e game according to which (i) they are demons, and (ii) the Wasting Tower is located on the Abyss.

The basic rules don't need to contradict this. Some people put the Wasting Tower in the Abyss (which suggests a rather light-touch planar scheme anyway). Some yugoloths have been hired exclusively by demons. In your game, some is all. Doesn't invalidate you from using the other vision of yugoloths at some point if you want. Doesn't invalidate Balesir (or whoever) from running a PS game where they laugh at those clueless berks who think all CE outer planes are the Abyss.

And if, at some point, there's a yugoloth-centric adventure published that involves a plot with demons, you're set. And if there's a yugoloth-centric adventure that involves a plot with devils, you can decide for yourself to include it or not.

I like inclusive lore. If I can use a yugoloth in my game and it means many things, that's a lot better than being meaningless. I can then narrow the definition for this particular yugoloth based on my own plans and preferences.

The genie is out of the bottle. People are running games in which lore - including lore they took from TSR/WotC books - contradicts the Planescape lore. Choices have to be made about what is the best version of any given creature to present, and a principle of consistency with existing lore is not going to make those choices for us.

You're over-stating the contradiction, here. It's not too hard to resolve 4e yugoloths with earlier-e yugoloths, it just means that as far as the game is concerned, 4e yugoloths are not the only yugoloths. Since earlier-e yugoloths already included the capacity to work with demons, all you need to adhere to the 4e cosmology is to put the Wasting Tower in a particular plane. If the planes are all relative and subjective anyway (ie: we're dropping most of the permeating alignment effects of a plane, perhaps relegating them to opt-in, which is kind of a good idea anyway), that's not a problem.

It's only strictly contradictory if you want to make sure no one else ever plays with yugoloths as anything other than what they were in 4e. Which is not a viable path forward for an inclusive edition. But looping 4e lore into the other lore is generally entirely possible, with a few caveats (shadar-kai, forex).

 

[pemerton]

Some yugoloths have been hired exclusively by demons. In your game, some is all.

That's a contradiction of my game, in which "yugoloths" have not been hired by demons - they are demons.

 

[Hussar]

The difference, as far as the original non-PS version of the critter goes, is that you will not see a vrock and an erinyes working together. You WILL find a vrock and a mezzodemon working together, and you will find an erinyes and a mezzodemon working together. Mezzodemons will work with anyone to forward the cause of evil.

Why not? Before the Blood War, there was no reason that a Vrock and an Eriyes couldn't work together. They are both Team Evil, after all. They both want roughly the same things. As far as Pre-MC8 D&D goes, there's nothing saying that demons and devils don't like each other any more than they don't like anything else. Or is there something in the Manual of the Planes that I missed?

There's certainly nothing in the Monster Manual or Monster Manual 2 which would preclude a Balor and a Pit Fiend from having a drink together. Again, AFAIK.