D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Weather Report]

Okay, but Yugoloths/Daemons have never just been a variant demon, until 4th Ed's lazy hand-wave.

Same with that botched alignment system, I mean, what was with the arbitrary truncation, they might as well have scrapped it completely (along with classes).

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's a contradiction of my game, in which "yugoloths" have not been hired by demons - they are demons.

Sure, I can appreciate that distinction. Lets alter the compromise a bit: in official D&D, some yugoloths have become demons, throwing in their lot with the CE fiends for (insert potential reason here). In your games, or other games that want the 4e lore, some is all.

Though it's worth noting that this distinction may be largely academic in 5e. If all evil extra-planar critters are "fiends," what falls into Demon and what falls into Devil and what falls into Other is likely open to reinterpretation.

Why not? Before the Blood War, there was no reason that a Vrock and an Eriyes couldn't work together.

There was. It was called "alignment."

LE and CE don't get along. And because they're both E, they really don't get along (central to the idea of evil is advancement of yourself at cost of others, after all).

So hey ho the "daemons" that cavort with them both.

 

[Hussar]

Wait, what? LE and CE can't work together? Since when?

Look at Dragonlance. You've got CE and LE working together (well, kinda sorta) all the time. Sure, they're backstabbing each other like crazy, but, that's because they're evil. But, they certainly do work together.

There's no particular reason, pre-Blood War that a demon and a devil couldn't work together. Give them a compelling reason to have a common goal and you're off to the races.

But, after Bloodwar, you can't.
[MENTION=6722817]Weather Report[/MENTION] - as far as Yugoloths/daemons not being demons, well, that's a bit up for grabs too. In 1e, there wasn't a big distinction between one or the other, other than whatever plane they came from. It's not like they were a species of some sort. Devils came from the 9 Hells, demons from the Abyss and Daemons from Gehenna. They had alignment based planes, so, they needed something to inhabit that space. So, they made NE demons and called them daemons.

And, can we please do without the edition warring stuff here? Good grief, just because you don't like 4e, doesn't mean that you keep having to tell us that 4e did it wrong in every single post. I mean, sheesh, no one's even really talking about 4e at all here. Well, no one except you.

 

[Weather Report]

@Weather Report - as far as Yugoloths/daemons not being demons, well, that's a bit up for grabs too.

Never, since their inception.

 

[13garth13]

as far as Yugoloths/daemons not being demons, well, that's a bit up for grabs too. In 1e, there wasn't a big distinction between one or the other, other than whatever plane they came from. It's not like they were a species of some sort. Devils came from the 9 Hells, demons from the Abyss and Daemons from Gehenna. They had alignment based planes, so, they needed something to inhabit that space. So, they made NE demons and called them daemons.

Hades....check your MM2 from 1st edition....daemons were from Hades (that's where Neutral evil hangs out....why Planescape designers felt the need to relocate them to Gehenna is beyond me....and as much as I ADORED Planescape, I never felt compelled to put in bits that contradicted my own game/1st edition legacies).

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Shemeska]

Hades....check your MM2 from 1st edition....daemons were from Hades (that's where Neutral evil hangs out....why Planescape designers felt the need to relocate them to Gehenna is beyond me....and as much as I ADORED Planescape, I never felt compelled to put in bits that contradicted my own game/1st edition legacies).

Cheers,
Colin

It wasn't that the 'loths moved out of Hades, so much that they expanded out into Gehenna and Carceri with the intent of colonizing all three planes and anchoring themselves to each, such that 'loths would naturally spawn from all three. Much of their power structure did shift to Gehenna, largely as a result of Hades being transformed into a giant battleground for the Blood War. The Tower Arcane/Tower of the Arcanaloths in Gehenna served as an analog to Khin-Oin, and it served to anchor the 'loths to that plane, ensuring that mezzoloths naturally generate from the plane's raw essence. The unfinished Tower of Incarnate Pain in Carceri's layer of Othrys would do the same thing for Carceri (except for that third tower being destroyed several times by gehreleths which puts a crimp in those long-term plans).

The 'loths still spawn naturally in Hades, but for a variety of reasons a lot of them migrated/colonized the adjacent planes. There's also the wasting effect of the plane itself, which appears long-term to even have an effect on the 'loths, so potentially they wanted to expand their base of power on the lower planes to stave that off, or at least allow themselves more room before those effects no longer mattered or conflicted with their long-term designs on the cosmos.

TL/DR - the 'loths are still on Hades, just in a less obvious way, and they're also now in Gehenna and Carceri as well.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wait, what? LE and CE can't work together? Since when?

It's not a matter of "LE and CE can't" do anything. It's a matter of "Demons and Devils have their own plots going on...and part of the hook of yugoloths is that they are interested in them both.

Law and Chaos are opposed metaphysical forces. Demons and devils have competing agendas. There's no reason to assume that these differences are meaningless.

Look at Dragonlance. You've got CE and LE working together (well, kinda sorta) all the time. Sure, they're backstabbing each other like crazy, but, that's because they're evil. But, they certainly do work together.

Sure, that can happen. DL was big on the Good vs. Evil plotline, so it reduced the variation in Evil to provide a solid antagonist.

I wouldn't pretend that we can expect that this is always the way demons and devils in all D&D games would act, though. Devils can't rule a world the demons burn to the ground, and demons can't burn a world the devils lock away. Explicitly, the original yugoloths could be found helping along either team, implying that this is something that is worthy of note about them, ie: something that cannot be expected of just any creature.

Antagonists don't have to work together just 'cuz they all shoot red lasers.

There's no particular reason, pre-Blood War that a demon and a devil couldn't work together. Give them a compelling reason to have a common goal and you're off to the races.

But, after Bloodwar, you can't.

You're being WAY to monolithic, here. It's not so binary a choice.

There's plenty of reasons demons and devils can't always be assumed to work together. You could have a scenario in which they did if you want -- nothing prohibits it. Even with the Blood War, you can do that (hell, one of the "yugoloth consipiracy" ideas is that they want to keep the Blood War going because it makes both demons and devils stronger for the upcoming War Against Good!). But equally nothing assumes it. No bit of the rulebooks says "Demons and devils always work together."

Going with an inclusive model of the game, you can say sometimes they grudgingly work together, and sometimes they break out into vicious all-out war. And then the DL fans run with one to its logical conclusion, and the PS fans who love the Blood War run to the other. At any given table, you may ping anywhere on the continuum.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Okay, but Yugoloths/Daemons have never just been a variant demon, until 4th Ed's lazy hand-wave.

Same with that botched alignment system, I mean, what was with the arbitrary truncation, they might as well have scrapped it completely (along with classes).

Posts that carry a primary tone of "Edition X sucks" are considered threadcrapping at best, Edition War flaimbait at worst. If you cannot articulate your ideas without recourse to insults and invective, at least refrain from posting them -- it does not make for good conversation.

Judging from your post count and join date, you seem to be pretty new. This is not a great first impression to make.

 

[Hussar]

It's not a matter of "LE and CE can't" do anything. It's a matter of "Demons and Devils have their own plots going on...and part of the hook of yugoloths is that they are interested in them both.

Law and Chaos are opposed metaphysical forces. Demons and devils have competing agendas. There's no reason to assume that these differences are meaningless. [\quote]

Law and chaos as opposed metaphysical forces is a Planescape invention. It does not occur in pre Planescape D&D.

Sure, that can happen. DL was big on the Good vs. Evil plotline, so it reduced the variation in Evil to provide a solid antagonist.

I wouldn't pretend that we can expect that this is always the way demons and devils in all D&D games would act, though. Devils can't rule a world the demons burn to the ground, and demons can't burn a world the devils lock away. Explicitly, the original yugoloths could be found helping along either team, implying that this is something that is worthy of note about them, ie: something that cannot be expected of just any creature.

Antagonists don't have to work together just 'cuz they all shoot red lasers.

Nothing I said should even imply that they "have" to work together. Just that the option is there.

You're being WAY to monolithic, here. It's not so binary a choice.

There's plenty of reasons demons and devils can't always be assumed to work together. You could have a scenario in which they did if you want -- nothing prohibits it. Even with the Blood War, you can do that (hell, one of the "yugoloth consipiracy" ideas is that they want to keep the Blood War going because it makes both demons and devils stronger for the upcoming War Against Good!). But equally nothing assumes it. No bit of the rulebooks says "Demons and devils always work together."

Going with an inclusive model of the game, you can say sometimes they grudgingly work together, and sometimes they break out into vicious all-out war. And then the DL fans run with one to its logical conclusion, and the PS fans who love the Blood War run to the other. At any given table, you may ping anywhere on the continuum.

And, it's a good thing I never said that they always work together isn't it?

But, post Blood War, you're flat out stating that they can't.

You stated,

There was. It was called "alignment."

LE and CE don't get along. And because they're both E, they really don't get along (central to the idea of evil is advancement of yourself at cost of others, after all).

which is not really hard wired into alignment. Sure, they don't get along. They're evil. But, that doesn't preclude them working together. Post Blood War, they can't. You've stated that multiple times in this thread. The difference for Yugoloths, according to you, is that they can work for either "side". Pre-Bloodwar, there isn't a "side" to work for. All the demons and devils are not locked into this monolithic struggle.

So, if demons and devils can work together, then why can't I have a vrock and an erinyes working together? Why do I need mercenary Yugoloths?

 

[Weather Report]

Posts that carry a primary tone of "Edition X sucks" are considered threadcrapping at best, Edition War flaimbait at worst. If you cannot articulate your ideas without recourse to insults and invective, at least refrain from posting them -- it does not make for good conversation.

Judging from your post count and join date, you seem to be pretty new. This is not a great first impression to make.

Save it, stop gunning for me.

Nothing wrong with stating how I feel, and commenting on the truth, and snidely remarking on my articulation, and post date (I have been on these boards for many, many years) is cheap, and so is the red font.

If you've been around for years, no reason for me to use a light touch. You know the rules, you know what thread moderation looks like, and so there's no reason to keep you around after commenting on moderator action for the second time.

Have a vacation. We'll see you in a week. ~ KM