Pathfinder 1E Is Pathfinder going to slow down?

[Remathilis]

I think sometime down the line, a Pathfinder 2.0 will appear just because at a certain point the rules (already 12 years old and on their third coat of paint) will need a refresh. They will need to fix problems, cull deadwood, and incorporate years of additional feedback. Additionally, I wouldn't mind PF2.0 simplifying and streamlining some of the math and further fixing inherent problems with the 3.x rules (such as magic item dependance).

That said, I don't see if for at least 3-5 more years. Paizo would be nuts to do it now with D&D Next shaping up. They'll wait to see how Next is received before making any radical changes to the system.

 

[SolitonMan]

I guess for me, I want something I can use without having to do lots of extra work in order to use it. Sure there are lots of work-arounds, but if I wanted to do that much work I wouldn't have spent the money and simply did it myself in the first place. The purpose of a published adventure is so a DM can run an adventure without having to do the prep work (other than reading it). Forcing a DM to look up info online and in other books defeats that purpose.

I'm a bit curious, Callinostros, if you're using internet-based resources during your games. I love the Paizo APs, but I agree that it's troublesome to look up information. Would you feel there would be a benefit to having a highly hyperlinked version of the PDF included as part of a subscription? Meaning that basically every item that could link to something in the PRD, would. So if an NPC is a wizard (and presumably as an NPC would have a stat block included in a given adventure) then in the stat block you could click on 'wizard' and it would open the relevant section of the PRD. Similarly for all the monster references that go to some book. Or the stats for a PRD weapon, or spell, or rule.

I've often wondered how much added value leveraging online resources would bring to an AP. When I run, I tend not to use physical references anymore, but to open all the windows I think I'll need in browser tabs. Perhaps the PDF versions of the AP volumes could be linked to all the relevant and/or desirable resources in a manner that would make them easily accessible. Of course, that doesn't help with the physical copy, but since they all come with a free copy of the PDF, it would potentially be a nice(r) bonus.

 

[Kinak]

My experience with Pathfinder is admittedly very limited, but I'm seeing a very similar experience to when I was playing 3e. "How does monster x work?", "can you check spell y?", "How does feat Z work?" and then time is taken to find the appropriate book "Is that monster book 2 or 3?" and to look it up. Now looking up rules isn't unique to PF/3e, however trying to find the right rule in the right book amongst the stack of books is IMO bloated.

If someone did that, you're absolutely right that it'd be annoying with 3rd or Pathfinder. It'd also be annoying with 2nd Edition, 4e, Shadowrun, Rifts, certain styles of GURPS, and any other game where you're using more than a handful of books. The trick is that you never have to do with Pathfinder.

My players have Core Rulebooks they'll use sometimes, but if I need a ruling... I ask Google. If I need monster stats to prep before the game, I get them out of the PRD, even though literally every monster book for Pathfinder is sitting right downstairs.

Similarly, if my wife needs something, she'll use search in the PDFs she has open. I'm not sure if she can search them all at once, but she always has a bunch open in tabs on her iPad.

If you hate using electronics at the table, I'd suggest prepping beforehand, especially for monsters and NPCs. Here's the trick, though, that has nothing to do with supplements. With the way monsters and NPCs are handled in 3.x, you really need to do that in advance anyway. So you're losing literally nothing by having more books available.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[callinostros]

As a note of comparison, Forgotten Realms has about 105 different source material for it spanning 4 editions of D&D (excluding adventures and novels) (source: http://worldsofdnd.wordpress.com/product-lists/forgotten-realms/forgotten-realms-products/). According to Paizo (http://paizo.com/pathfinder/campaignSetting/pathfinderRPG) they have 54 books (excluding the APs) covering Golarion. They are about half-way to Forgotten Realms.

Either way, 54 books is a lot of books to buy if you are new to the official Pathfinder world setting. Sure no one needs all of it, but for those who "want to do it right" it is an almost insurmountable hill of books to climb. I would call this bloat. However, since the APs are the focus of the world it is easy to compartmentalize purchases around them. Of course each AP has more than just the 6 adventure books; they also have map packs, setting material, pawns, player guidebooks, etc a GM can buy as well. I do worry, that this is a lot to present to a new group trying out Pathfinder. Where do they start?

Of course, Pathfinder Beginner Box is an excellent start but after that it gets more muddled. But this comes from the sheer quantity of books now out for Pathfinder and is compounded each month they continue to put out another 4-6 products.

BTW Feel free to clarify my numbers for the setting books as I likely messed them up in my research.

 

[callinostros]

As a relevant side question: Do you think the 3rd party publishers may be adding to the weight and bloat of Pathfinder?

There is now so much material available from 3PP that it feels as if there is too many options. While Paizo has avoided much of the crunch rules (new classes, etc) which makes Pathfinder from Paizo manageable, 3PP are adding in all that crunch to the point it may feel bloated despite the slow release of hardbounds from Paizo. Sure 3PP products are always optional but then so was all the other products that made other editions of D&D feel bloated.

 

[Kinak]

To answer the question of the thread, of course Pathfinder is going to slow down. But, I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.

As someone mentioned upthread, the APs are Paizo's real bread and butter. The rules line, although doing quite well, largely exists to support the APs. You can see that by the timing of rule books' releases, Mythic Adventures being a recent example, and the leisurely pace at which they've added new rules material after getting the groundwork in.

The real question moving forward is "when will Pathfinder level out?" There will be a point where it stops growing. At that point, we can start seriously asking when it'll start declining. It's not just going to be soaring one day and falling off a cliff the next.

Venturing into anecdotes, my group is more excited about Mythic Adventures and the Advanced Class Guide than any of the rule books between the core book and now. And I, as GM, am more excited about Bestiary 4 than any of the previous bestiaries.

So, although it's satisfying to predict doom on the frontrunner, that's certainly not the only narrative you can fit to the facts. The better fit is probably the less exciting "Pathfinder continues to grow and do well, but that's not an excuse to get cocky."

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[iwarrior-poet]

I think Pathfinder will get a significantly extended life if someone comes out with an iOS/Android app that has a sweet character builder at its base--with other add-ons like treasure builder, monster generator etc.

 

[N'raac]

If someone did that, you're absolutely right that it'd be annoying with 3rd or Pathfinder. It'd also be annoying with 2nd Edition, 4e, Shadowrun, Rifts, certain styles of GURPS, and any other game where you're using more than a handful of books. The trick is that you never have to do with Pathfinder.

If you hate using electronics at the table, I'd suggest prepping beforehand, especially for monsters and NPCs. Here's the trick, though, that has nothing to do with supplements. With the way monsters and NPCs are handled in 3.x, you really need to do that in advance anyway. So you're losing literally nothing by having more books available.

I find most published scenarios run best if I read them once through to get the feel, then a second time in detail, reviewing the abilities of the opposition, ensuring I know the unusual rules (or at least have a quick summary or page reference), assess their choices (I often change an enemy's spell list, for example), understand their abilities, feats, etc. and have their battle plan drawn up (which spells/feats/abilities get used when, etc.). A third read shortly before Game Night is also useful, though only the sections likely to be hit.

Now, if my players are asking what their spells, feats, etc. do, then I don't feel bad suggesting they look up the abilities of their own characters now, as they could not be bothered to do so earlier. Did they not read the feats before they chose them?

 

[Kinak]

I find most published scenarios run best if I read them once through to get the feel, then a second time in detail, reviewing the abilities of the opposition, ensuring I know the unusual rules (or at least have a quick summary or page reference), assess their choices (I often change an enemy's spell list, for example), understand their abilities, feats, etc. and have their battle plan drawn up (which spells/feats/abilities get used when, etc.). A third read shortly before Game Night is also useful, though only the sections likely to be hit.

That's a good plan. I end up doing something similar, but haven't thought it completely through as a process. I find, somewhat unintuitively, that I end up spending more time prepping published scenarios than not.

I've actually started reworking enemy's stats pretty substantially so they run faster at the table during what would be your second pass. I'm always tempted to skip the third, but invariably regret it when I do.

Now, if my players are asking what their spells, feats, etc. do, then I don't feel bad suggesting they look up the abilities of their own characters now, as they could not be bothered to do so earlier. Did they not read the feats before they chose them?

Heh, yeah. I feel like my spellcasters' mom sometimes.

"What does this do?" "I don't know, what does it do?"

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Gundark]

If someone did that, you're absolutely right that it'd be annoying with 3rd or Pathfinder. It'd also be annoying with 2nd Edition, 4e, Shadowrun, Rifts, certain styles of GURPS, and any other game where you're using more than a handful of books. The trick is that you never have to do with Pathfinder.

My players have Core Rulebooks they'll use sometimes, but if I need a ruling... I ask Google. If I need monster stats to prep before the game, I get them out of the PRD, even though literally every monster book for Pathfinder is sitting right downstairs.

Similarly, if my wife needs something, she'll use search in the PDFs she has open. I'm not sure if she can search them all at once, but she always has a bunch open in tabs on her iPad.

If you hate using electronics at the table, I'd suggest prepping beforehand, especially for monsters and NPCs. Here's the trick, though, that has nothing to do with supplements. With the way monsters and NPCs are handled in 3.x, you really need to do that in advance anyway. So you're losing literally nothing by having more books available.

Cheers!
Kinak

I'm a player in living Pathfinder , so some weeks I come and some I don't. The place where we play has no access to Wifi so checking out the online SRD would be out of the question.