Pathfinder 1E So far not impressed with Pathfinder

Zardnaar

Legend
I see no need myself to get OSR. Have too many copies of 1E still and if and when I run it again it will be RAW complete with level limits and THAC0!

We're running 2nd ed my players are mostly d20 era and do not seem that interested in 1st ed or BECMI except maybe as a one off game or a crack at the Tomb of Horrors. Some of them on Sunday were flipping through my 1st ed books having a laugh at the art. Oh well probably have to look to C&C to get them to have a punt at it.
 

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brvheart

Explorer
Your experience does seem atypical. AD&D 1E and older editions are designed about about 80% of the XP coming from treasure. This is both in design and borne out by the published adventures. (The actual rate of treasure:monster XP is set out in one of the BECM books, IIRC, in a section on adventure design).

Cheers!

BEMC Books? I know only of the Dungeon Master Guide as reference here. And as for published modules, whose? TSR's? You also have to remember that this was at a period when Judges Guild was producing most of the published modules and certainly did not follow that formula. Not to get personal, but Merrick you were 7 years old when I started playing 1E. What could you know of how the game was supposed to be played? And OD&D was even earlier.
 
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Orius

Legend
2e was kind of an awkward phase for D&D, where the rules were still mostly best at quasi-wargaming, but the DMG was chock full of story-related advice and TSR was publishing all kinds of epic story novels. If pressed, I'd say that 2e specializes in settings -- it's got everything from the classic GH to super-high-magic FR to avante garde settings like PS and DS.

2e's the experimental edition really.

2e still has a lot of the basic core that originated in the original books and were developed in 1e and BECMI. It takes that core and tries to see how far it can go with it, and it does a lot of that experimentation in settings -- Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Planescape, Birthright. There's experiementation in core, foremost with the PO books, as well. The DM is encouraged to experiment and try different things.
 

brvheart

Explorer
I now I understand Basic D&D, never played it. It was a completely different system than advanced and was intended to be. It was meant for beginners and younger players. While it may have had influence on 2E, it didn't on 1E or very little.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
BECMI was more elegant than AD&D I would probably argue better designed as well with things like unified ability tables. I went to AD&D because I wanted things like Paladin and Rangers, 9 alignments and multiclassing. If basic wasn't erm so basic I probably would have stayed with it.
 

Starfox

Hero
...many players mistook the play style that early D&D is designed around. Many players who hadn't been playing since the very beginning saw the book covers, with heroic-looking characters confronting dragons, and assumed that the game was about heroes fighting the good fight. But things like random encounters and the gold=xp rule actually encourage players to avoid direct conflict whenever possible. Which tends to create a strong nab-the-loot, combat-as-war, Conan-mercenary dynamic. You get most XP from gathering treasure, so the adventure becomes a logistical puzzle to solve: How do we avoid random encounters and other hazards which yield minimal/no treasure (i.e., XP) in order to get to the loot, and then get home alive?.

From what you gather or experienced? Because that was not my experience. I did not give that much XP for treasure and none for coin. Monsters were the main source for XP most of the time.

And this is where the wonderful nature of humanity, art, and social development mixes it all up and creates lovely new stuff from misunderstanding.

I agree with Tequila Sunrise - That WAS what early DnD was best at. But I also agree with brvheart - back in 1979 when I began playing, that is NOT how we played around here. The channel of information/instruction from game designer to us playing this brand new game in distant Sweden was a narrow one - we only had the game books to go by, and they were thin back then. Remember, this is pre DMG days. We played the game as we understood it, and so did thousands of others all over the world, and from all these "misunderstandings" the game evolved into the hundreds of games, campaign-styles, and storytelling techniques we all love.

What I am trying to say is that when something is as murky and hard to understand as the early DnD rules, human intellect and imagination will fill in the gap - and do so in a way that fits each of us better than the original work, perfectly understood, ever could have.

Another example of this is when I try to write something inspired by a book or movie I enjoyed a long time ago - I never look up the original work beforehand. I find it much more inspirational to work from things half-remembered, enjoyed perhaps 20 years ago or more. Because when I do, my imagination fills out any holes in my memory, and the result is my work and much less of a pastiche than it could have been. Sometimes I do look up the work afterwards, and am often disappointed - "my version" often feels more interesting and more poignant to me, memory having filtered the parts of the work that I didn't relate to.

There is a value in a sketchy description, memory, or even rule - it allows each of us to fill in the blanks.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Not to get personal, but Merrick you were 7 years old when I started playing 1E.


Well, oh Ancient One, your great age seems to have not given you a bit of wisdom: When you start with, "Not do do this thing that I know darned well is wrong...," you should stop typing.


What could you know of how the game was supposed to be played?


Gygax and company did not have some super-psychic power they used to communicate only with old people. There is only one real source of how the game was "supposed to be played" - the books, modules, and magazines of the day. And a youngster can read those as well as you, and they are readily available.

You may speak to how your group played it in the day, and nobody can gainsay that. But "supposed to be played" is open to everyone who knows how to read.

Folks, as this goes forward, remember - you may have personal perspective, but claims that you know the One True Way are apt to get you in trouble. Going ad hominem in the process only increases your risk. I recommend you keep it civil, and show respect for your fellow posters and their opinions, young and old alike.
 
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Hussar

Legend
And, I'd point out that anyone who actually played AD&D by the rules in the books, was certainly giving xp for gold. You were supposed to. Of course, by and large, the monsters were so wimpy, that we just killed everything we could, and stole everything that wasn't nailed down.

Helped, I suppose, that the Unearthed Arcana came out shortly after I started playing a lot of AD&D, which MASSIVELY upped the PC's firepower.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
And we looked at the rule that said xp for treasure and said "XP for cash? That's stupid". And ignored it.

Needless to say we leveled slower...AHHHHH but that was the good old days.

Seriously we did ignore that rule. And like somebody said, there was no direct internet comms with the designers, so I'm sure we did other things that were not the intent.





Hey wait a minute...we still do that today! :)
 

brvheart

Explorer
Being that I lived an hour and a half from Decatur it didn't take super psychic power to go over to JG and have long talks with Bob who wrote most of the DMG. I also spend a lot of time at the cons talking to Gary. They get bored just signing autographs. Sure, a lot of it was ignoring the XP for coin and doing what we felt like doing, but that was pretty much the standard back then. Almost no one ran it by the book. And yeah there was no internet to look up rules questions. It was pretty much snail mail if you wanted to ask. Reading the Dragon generally gave you a biased view of things so they are not that reliable of a source. It still isn't. Mostly articles on experimental rules and classes. Occasionally Gary would write a column to add to official errata, but it wasn't often. So if you are going by the Dragon, etc you are getting a rather skewed view of things of how they were. Much better to talk to the old dms IMHO. But what do we know? We are just a bunch of old farts!
 

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