Beyond Old and New School - "The Secret That Was Lost"

Mercurius

Legend
PREAMBLE
The quote in my title is from the great John Boorman movie, Excalibur, and refers to an understanding that was lost to Arthur and Camelot, leading to Arthur's wounding and the poisoning of the land. But more on that in a moment.

This post was inspired by the thread, What Has Caused the Old School Revival? But being rather self-indulgent, I began to wander far afield from my original intention, so I decided to craft this into an essay, even a manifesto (of sorts).

Before getting into it, let me lay my own bias out on the table, just so that the suspicious veterans of the Edition Wars aren’t wondering as they read this, what’s his real agenda? I say “my bias” not because I’m an advocate of this or that edition, or new vs. old school, but because as a human being I am biased, I speak from subjectivity. I started playing D&D in the early 80s with 1st edition and updated to each new edition of our great game as they came out – 2e, 3e, and 4e. I’m excited to start a 5e campaign up early next year. It might sound facetious to say this, but my favorite edition of D&D is D&D. I love the game itself, in whatever version; I see the specific rules system as being more of a methodology for the game, rather than the game itself. In other words, “D&D” is music, and the edition and specific rules set, is the medium the music is recorded on – whether vinyl, eight-track, casette, CD, mp3, etc.

Like audio media, Dungeons & Dragons has followed a developmental trajectory. But development is not without its pitfalls, it isn’t always “better and better,” although that is how it should be, if we’re able to integrate each stage into the next – or at least the “baby” of each stage, while throwing out the “bathwater.” Unfortunately, as flawed human beings, we tend to do the opposite – we tend to leave behind the good things, while picking up all sorts of baggage along the way. As we develop psychologically, we pick up new pathologies and neuroses. An adult has certain neuroses that a child couldn’t have, partially because they have a more mature mind and self-sense. On the other hand, most children are far more imaginative and without the hang-ups of adults, because our culture “teaches imagination out” as young people are indoctrinated by an education system that is still based upon early 20th century industrialism.

In a way I am saying that early D&D was akin to the childhood of the game, and recent games are the adult versions. But it isn’t so simple as that, and I am not saying that later/more mature = inherently better. If anything, I feel that something crucial has gone missing, the “secret that is lost” – and it is a secret that makes all the difference. But let me get to that later.

Aside from my “bias,” I do want to add a disclaimer – that what follows is not meant to be a strictly factual account, but more of an artistic rendering, an extended philosophical musing (and thus, in the end, meant to be a performance of the kind of approach that I’m advocating, which I’ll explain towards the end). I’m going to incorporate snapshots of the history of D&D and you might find I don’t represent things accurately - or at least not as you perceive them! All I can say is, bare with me – the point is the forest, not the trees.

So let’s get to it.

PART ONE: OLD SCHOOL, NEW SCHOOL, WHO NEEDS SCHOOL?

When talking about the Old School Renaissance (OSR), there seems to be a strange kind of bifurcation. Advocates of the OSR see it as harkening back to "real D&D" before it became obfuscated by excessive rules and filler. An analogy might be the gray box Forgotten Realms versus the later FR supplements, or the 3e white hardcovers. The gray box (or the Greyhawk box set) offered broad strokes of the world, broad indications more than strict directions on how to run a game set in the Realms. The later supplementation filled it all in, giving clearer guidelines, even rules, on How To Do It The Right Way. Of course I'm exaggerating in that the spirit of D&D—if not the resulting paradigm—has always been “Your Way is the Right Way,” but OneTrueWayism felt implied simply by virtue of the wealth of information presented; if something is published it feels like canon that a DM cannot, or should not, disagree with, while if it isn't published then there's tons of room to move.

In some sense this is unavoidable, at least if you want to publish books. The more books you published, or at least rule books, the less open-ended a game feels. Just there’s a huge difference between “You crest the hill and, after looking briefly back at the farmlands of your youth, you see the ruin-dotted northern wilds stretch out before you…” and “The King of Ysperath places the crown upon your head and declares your Overlord of the North.” The former is open-ended simply because its at the beginning, whereas the latter is right in the middle, or near the end, and feels less free.

(I think a good argument could be made that the biggest problem with editions of D&D after 1e is the sheer dumptruck-load of rules supplements, which I’ll touch on a bit more in a moment).

Detractors of the OSR say, in the extreme, that it is a nostalgia-driven attempt to recapture the Golden Age of the D&D we grew up on, which for most of us over the age of 30 was AD&D 1st or 2nd edition, BECMI, or for the true grognards, OD&D. As someone famously said, "the Golden Age of scifi is 12"; I think this applies to D&D as well; “old school” is, sans capitalization, a relative and subjective term that refers back to whatever version of the game we played in our youth, when we were (about) 12.

Compared to more recent iterations of the game, Old School D&D is, these detractors say, a clunky, anachronistic museum piece that has no place in modern gaming. This is a bit of an extreme perspective that few probably actually hold, and I doubt there are any true "detractors" of the OSR, but at least there are those that find the slicker, more complex "new school" iterations of D&D more appealing, and the old school approaches problematic for various reasons.

Anyhow, there's a general view - especially among OSR advocates - that D&D "died," or at least went astray, sometime between the publication of Dragonlance waaaay back in 1984, to the arrival of 3e in 2000. Dragonlance set the stage for the rich settings of the late 80s and 90s, and an approach to D&D that was more driven by setting and story than it was free exploration; gradually the metaplot took over the hexcrawl. With 3e, D&D reached unparalled heights in complexity and customization and the canonical supplementation of the 2e settings became transposed to the rules themselves. You could still modify 3e, but it was less about “making the rules your own” and more about adding feats, classes, and other options to the already established rules system. The OSR became the clarion call harkening back to a simpler, freer time in which D&D was more a game of imagination than of simulation, more about exploring wilderness and dungeons than about optimizing your character with kewl powerz.

Ironically enough, when 3e came out it was a kind of "revival" to a more "old school" style of play after a decade plus of 2e style campaign settings and meta-plots, which had likely been influenced by the story-based World of Darkness games. Think of, for instance, the advertising of Sword & Sorcery Studios/Necromancy Games, which I believe said something like "3rd edition rules, 1st edition style."

In the late 90s AD&D was floundering, partially because it was a big, clunking anachronistic system - at least compared to the last decade or so of design innovation. 1987 saw the publication of two games which had, at first, a subtle but increasingly important influence on RPG design: Ars Magica and Talislanta. Both included variants of the dice roll + attribute vs. target number design paradigm that became the basis of the d20 system more than a decade later. One of the lead designers of Ars Magica, Mark Rein Hagen, went on to design the World of Darkness games, which for the first time provided a challenge to the dominance of D&D in the RPG world, emphasizing story over the game. The other designer of Ars Magica, Jonathan Tweet, not only updated Talislanta a few years later, but was a lead designer in D&D 3e. Tweet and Rein Hagen, along with other designers, led the RPG community into a brave new world of Indie design, while AD&D – even in its 2nd edition – hadn’t adopted this new paradigm.

With 3rd edition, Dungeons & Dragons wasn’t as much brought into the 2000s, but into the 90s. The flagship RPG had lagged behind the rest of the RPG world in terms of rules design. In the early Aughties, D&D experienced a revival in interest that, if not equalling—or even coming close to—the legendary “25 million” of the 1980s, at least saw D&D’s popularity jump from the declining 90s. With 3e, we had the first wave of lapsed players returning – people who hadn’t played since they were in high school or college in the 80s, but now had time and energy to spend on D&D in their 30s and 40s – as well as a new generation of gamers, Gen Y folks who found the modern sensibilities of the 3e game more appealing than “that old 80s game.”

I’m not exactly sure what happened that led Wizards of the Coast to design and publish 4e in the way they did, but I can imagine a few related factors. One, the glut of product of 2000-07, which included literally one hundred hardcover books (including settings) - compare that to the mere thirteen AD&D 1e hardcovers produced from 1977-88 – not to mention thousands of third party products because of the OGL.

Another factor is that ,despite the surge in popularity in the early Aughties, the player base seemed to gradually decline again (note: I don’t have facts to back this up; this is based upon impressions of others and my general observations). This seems inherent to any edition, that there’s an initial surge, then a rise as the game becomes established and even more popular, then a gradual decline. By 2007, while 3e might not have been significantly declining, it probably wasn’t growing – and for a company owned by a larger company, a steady state isn’t acceptable. What is needed is growth, growth, and more growth.

A third factor is more cultural and generational. Where the Gen X kids of the late 70s and 80s were growing up in a world in which Pac Man and Galaga were the state-of-the-art video games, in the Aughties you had a plethora of first-person games, and then the immersion of World of Warcraft, et al. If you’re a 10-year old boy and your options are D&D or Defender, then you might choose D&D; but if your options are D&D or Xbox, well, it’s a lot easier to dive into the latter than the former.

Wizards of the Coast had the idea, noble if perhaps misguided, to try to appeal to “Generation Xbox,” to tap into the milllions of Warcraft subscribers and offer something that they would find appealing. The result, though, is well known: 4th edition arrived and, whatever the initial sales were, was met with rather intense vitriol and quickly dwindled and led to a fracturing in the D&D community due to an Edition War that made its predecessors seem relatively tame. Whatever the merits of 4e were, the overall result was disastrous. Despite an attempt at reviving the edition with Essentials in 2010, it was clear that 4e was a failure, and 5e was announced in January of 2012, just three and a half years into 4e.

That said, part of the upshot of 4e is that perhaps because it was a failure, it led to two things: one, the creation and publication of Pathfinder, in which 3.5 not only “survived but thrived,” and the Old School Renaissance. Older players in particular fled 4e for either the more homey pastures of Paizo—which was a company clearly for the people by the people, with the humble goal of updating the legacy of the recent “golden age” of 3rd edition—or the classic realms of old school gaming, a simpler time and game.

I think the OSR has less to do with rules, though, than it does with a feeling - which includes presentation and the basic assumptions of the game. One of the problems with 3e, in my opinion, is that there was no simple, basic game that could be played without the density of rules that edition (and now Pathfinder) became known for. Castles & Crusades was an attempt to create that, and in my mind combines the best of "old school flavor" and "new school design," although without the production values and support that jaded D&D players of the 21st century have become accustomed to (plus the name itself implies something more medieval than fantastical).

I know that advocates of the OSR see clunky mechanics like THAC0 and descending AC and Saving Throws as, to quote an oft-used phrase, “features and not flaws,” but this is not unlike saying that a typewriter's inability to correct and requirement of an ink ribbon is a feature and not a flaw, or a vinyl record's inability to be recorded over is a feature and not a flaw. Yes, it is true on some level – especially taken out of historical, technological context - but when you compare it with more modern technology, it ends up looking anachronistic (I, for one, don’t miss fastforwarding to the next song on a cassette tape, or having to “be kind and rewind” a VHS, even if I feel tinges of nostalgia for bygone technologies).


When I see “THAC0” or “Saving Throw vs. Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic” I get a sense of nostalgia, but I don’t actually miss them on the game table. The game has, well, moved on, and I for one am happy with later developments…to an extent.

PART TWO: THE SECRET THAT WAS LOST

That said, there is something that was left behind with a vinyl record, the typewriter, or plain old pen and paper. A vinyl record has a naturalistic sound that, to the discerning ear, is quite appealing (its also interesting to note that vinyl has become “classic” whereas eight-tracks have defunct). A typewriter has a clickity-clack to it that has a certain beauty to it and, dare I say, inspires nostalgia (a typewriter is also classic, compared to the early word processors, which are defunct). Writing with a pen on paper has an organic immediacy that is lacking with a laptop. Actually, just the other day Quentin Tarantino remarked on Jay Leno's show that he likes to write with pen and paper, that there's nothing like the blank page - which is different from the blank screen. Or we can think of Neal Stephenson’s evocative, if pretentious, claim that he wrote the entire Baroque Cycle by quill and ink jar, and, I believe, by lamp-light.

Another relevant analogy is that of animation. As a child of two daughters, I’ve watched my share of animated feature films over the last couple years and am well aware that Pixar has created some impressive movies, but I can't shake the feeling that something is lacking - that the faces of Pixar characters seem hollow and without life, compared to the "old school" Disney movies like Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and even more recently, Beauty and the Beast. I think it has something to do with removing the human hand from the act of drawing, that as soon as that is done the art becomes...in-human.


Actually, in animated movies we can see the problem in a vivid nutshell: the more the technology develops, the less room there is for imagination to “inhabit” the images, and thus to bring them to life. What we’re left with is what is served to us; we cannot bring life to Pixar faces, they rely upon their own – and because they aren’t alive, aren’t analog if you will but digital, they come across as almost undead.

I think the Holy Grail of D&D is to find some way to combine the "feel" of vinyl, or pen and paper, or classic animation, with the technology and utility of the mp3, or the laptop/tablet, of computer technology. I'm not sure if its possible--or rather, I think its very difficult, because there seems to be something about modern technologies that actually inhibits that vitality and life-force I’m pointing towards. Its why I'll preview an RPG on PDF, or a book on Amazon's "Look Inside," but always--always--buy the hard-copy if I like it. There’s just something about the feel of paper, of turning a page, and browsing that can’t be captured by a PDF.

In Excalibur, the Knights of the Round Table go on a quest to find the Grail; as Arthur put it, “We must find what was lost.” Over years the grail knights die or are ensorcelled by Morgana and her false grail, yet finally Parzival – after failing at first – is eventually successful. He discovers the secret, that “the King and the Land are One.” This resonates back to something Merlin said to Arthur early on: “You will be the land, and the land will be you. If you fail, the land will perish; as you thrive, the land will blossom.”

I first saw Excalibur when I was a kid, shortly after it came out in 1981, and since then I’ve seen it perhaps two dozen times; it still is one of my favorite movies of all time and I enjoy re-watching it every couple years or so. Excalibur looks rather dated today; the acting is over the top in a Shakespearean way—Boorman cast British stage actors—and it is focused more on atmosphere and story than on action and effects. In a similar way that the great Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan seems slow to the generation whose first exposure to Star Trek are the JJ Abrams films, so too would Excalibur seem old fashioned and slow to those brought up on Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films.

Yet I feel that there has been something lost in (most) modern cinema, something in Excalibur that is less present in Lord of the Rings (although Jackson did a good job of bringing some element of it in), something in Wrath of Khan that is completely lacking in Star Trek: Into Darkness. It is atmosphere, but not only that. It is a kind of mysticism, but not only that. Excalibur is a deeply esoteric film, drenched in mystical symbolism, which those “without the eyes to see” miss. The “secret of the Grail” sounds prosaic, but is a profound spiritual/metaphysical truth, resonating on both the collective (and ecological) level, but also on an existential individual level: that the “King” (human being) and the “Land” (world, one’s life) are “One,” are interconnected – that to the degree that we, either individually or collectively, “fail,” the land “perishes,” and if we thrive, the land “blossoms.”

How does this relate to Dungeons & Dragons? Well, I would argue that the “secret that was lost” is a quality that is natural to childhood, but that, in the Adult World of Wallstreet, taxes, and ulcers, and other Serious Things, we are taught out of. It is something that is becoming increasingly rarified in this age of smartphones and tech-at-will, in which every spare moment can be filled with a text message, a tweet, or an instagram.

What am I talking about? It is quite simple, something intrinsic to everything we do – especially roleplaying games like D&D. It is Imagination.

Of course it isn’t truly lost, especially to those few that might still be reading this. By and large, tabletop gamers are people that love the “theater of mind” at whatever level, from the relatively shallow waters of laughing at the game table, to the vast depths of wonderment.

As a child, imagination comes naturally. As we grow older, it is either taught out and/or applied to Serious Things, or filled to the brim with pre-packaged imagery. For those into science fiction and fantasy literature, there’s a clear trajectory from the more minimalistic and impressionistic fiction of the 60s and 70s, to the more detailed and simulationist works of the last couple decades. A Michael Moorcock novel of the New Wave 1960s might be 150 pages but packed to the brim with adventure and fantastical places, while a Robert Jordan novel of the 1990s might be 900 pages, most of which is excruciatingly (in my opinion) detailed description. The parallel to D&D is obvious: minimalist OD&D vs. complex 3e or 4e.

For imagination to thrive, we have to make room for it – we have to give it space to grow. The more detailed a description in a book, the less the reader creates – the more they passively receive. Some writer once said that a story is “written” by both the author and reader, to varying degrees. Over the last 30+ years, as our media technology has developed, the story has been written more and more by the author, and the reader has become more and more passive. A blatant example of this is the difference in experience between a simple tabletop RPG and a video game. In the latter, the participant just interacts with a pre-created environment. There is absolutely no imagination, no creation – just immersion into a simulated environment. In a classic tabletop RPG, the GM and players co-create a Theater of Mind; each creates their own imagery, yet in a shared context.

This is not nostalgia, at least not in the pejorative sense of the world as a kind of pointless sentimentality. It is not escapism, either, in the same light; or if it is, as Tolkien put it (in paraphrase), escapism is a healthy response to being in an unhealthy imprisonment, just as nostalgia is a heart-felt longing for something precious that is gone. What I am talking about, this urge that exists in all (or at least most) D&D players is a desire for something that we have lost, or at least is in danger of atrophy, yet that we deeply yearn for – and that no simulative experience can satisfy, no matter how advanced.

PART THREE: BEYOND OLD & NEW

Ultimately this isn’t about old or new school. Yet I do think that old school games better facilitate the imaginative experience, and that it is that which tabletop RPGs excel at more than any other game, more than video games, board games, poker or chess: the play of the imagination. This is why, or one of the (core) reasons why the classic hexcrawl is so appealing, why OSR folks disavow railroading metaplots: there is a sense of immense freedom, a shared mind-space in which—quite literally—anything can happen. This is also why I’ve never found CRPGs particularly drawing: I can’t lose the sense that I’m in a simulative environment crafted by algorithms and with limited possible outcomes, rather than the human mind and imagination, which is limitless.

In a CRPG, I might not know what is over that next hill, but I do know that it is based upon a programmed formula. In a tabletop RPG, I know that whatever is over that next hill is based upon the human imagination, and even if it isn’t particularly innovative, it is somehow real.

If you made it through the last 4,000+ words, I applaud you for your attention span and thank you for your time. I feel strongly about this because it reaches far beyond gaming – it has to do with our very human existence, and what I’m interested in as both a teacher and counselor. I don’t want to be all doom-and-gloom about this, but I see this issue in RPGs as being microcosmic of a larger process, that has to do with human imagination – a quality so intrinsic, so unique to human beings (as far as we know), so important – yet also in danger of being lost, atrophied, or at least, as I said, filled to the brim with second-rate and comparatively paltry simulations of living, breathing imaginations. I actually think that tabletop RPGs can be a positive cultural influence, that a true revival – not simply of old school vs. new school – but all schools, can benefit human culture and society through inspiring the use of that most vital human capacity: imagination.

Imagination is the juice of life. Like sex without love, life without imagination can still be enjoyable, at least for a time. But eventually one gets the sense that something is lacking, something vital misplaced – and one cannot find it. The usual response is More and better! More and better sex and lovers, more and better experiences, technologies, stuff-to-fill-the-void. I’d even say that its an important part of development to go through this process, in whatever way. But it won’t satisfy. Why? Because the void cannot be filled because it is endless. If we realize that we have an amazing opportunity, to “turn around,” so to speak, and rather than trying to fill the void with More and Better!, we can instead explore the possibilities of the void, create within it (and as it, for it is us). That is the function of imagination – to envision, to dream up possibilities, and then to bring them into being via our creativity. And in so doing, the King will thrive and the Land will blossom.
 

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Save for a few lines where my poor vision decided to fail me, I read it all. I'm not sure I have thoughts on it just yet, but I hate to see all this effort you placed here simply go un-responded to.

I think if I have to sum up my initial thoughts, what we need is less "must" and more "may". Looking back through other games I play, be they video games or card games or board games, I find I often have the most fun and get the most creative when I am not specifically required to do something, but may make a choice between a few things, or between something and nothing. That sort of gap for personal decision making I think really helps to bring life to an activity. Games that simply run without that choice are boring and while they may be creative games, don't inspire my imagination.
 

Great essay, and excellent analysis. Thanks for posting it. I largely agree with you.

Mercurius said:
When I see “THAC0” or “Saving Throw vs. Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic” I get a sense of nostalgia, but I don’t actually miss them on the game table. The game has, well, moved on, and I for one am happy with later developments…to an extent.

Right on target for me.

All variants of D&D have their good and bad points. There are things I find positively frustrating about old rule design. The funky arbitrariness is fun at times, but if I actually play a game I want some smooth consistency. I also want more choices than we had with the original B/X approach, without the arbitrary limitations of 1E, but to maintain a sense of simplicity and flexibility that was lost with the rules-bloat in the late 3E era (which Pathfinder has not solved, though it certainly addressed other inconsistencies).

As I mentioned in the other thread, my solution is to assemble my own OSR/OGL hybrid and try to balance the two approaches. I think the 5E development started down this road but I'm not sure whether it will end up there or not.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
I like all versions of D&D but one thing the later versions of D&D is missing is a tthe basic version of the game. DDN seems like it will fill this gap.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Ultimately this isn’t about old or new school. Yet I do think that old school games better facilitate the imaginative experience...

...for you. They better facilitate the imaginative experience for you, personally.

This is where, ultimately, you go off the rails. You wander into the usual realm of, "This works best for me, so it works best for everybody." I'm sorry that you spent so much effort, and so many words, to come back to the same old flawed place. To use your own analogy - you forget that we don't all fall in love with the same kinds of people! Your bias gets the better of you in the final lines, I'm afraid.

We are humans. We are varied. We aren't all inspired or facilitated by the same things.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
...for you. They better facilitate the imaginative experience for you, personally.

This is where, ultimately, you go off the rails. You wander into the usual realm of, "This works best for me, so it works best for everybody." I'm sorry that you spent so much effort, and so many words, to come back to the same old flawed place. To use your own analogy - you forget that we don't all fall in love with the same kinds of people! Your bias gets the better of you in the final lines, I'm afraid.

We are humans. We are varied. We aren't all inspired or facilitated by the same things.

I don't entirely subscribe to Mercurious ideas, but I don't think this is a waste, or just another talky rant on defense of the OSR, what I read spoke to me of a very different thing, mostly that it doesn't matter if a game is old school or new school or non-school, as long as it sparks your imagination. For many folks less rules or more mysterious rules are more in therms of imagination (and up to a point I agree), in that way OSR resonates better with them.

However up to that I agree, some people can use their imaginations better when they are fully unbound or only bound by little. ("I want to be the best musician in the world!!" "no rule say you can't, go ahead"), but not all of us are like that and that doesn't mean we are less creative (I would argue that in fact it could be the opposite, but have no actual evidence I can only suggest it) having a solid reference frame helps you get away with more stuff, in that regard we like those extra rules ("let's challenge the BBEG to a cooking contest with the fate of the world as the stakes!!" "ok, cooking is a proficiency and both you and the BBEG are proficient let's roll with it").
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
D&D never lost the secret... it never had it. D&D is just not realizing the secret.

D&D is a game based on human imagination therefore it must deal with hthe difference of human minds. Therefore the only way a big game like D&D can survive, the secret, is:

enforce one way to play (aka single setting games)
or
embrace almost every way the game is played (aka multiple playstyle game).


What D&D has been doing for 40 years is saying saying it's the latter but being a different version of the former depending on edition. This is why games like Pathfinder, 13th Age, and all those OSR game have their niches. And this is why D&D Next is being designed the way it is. Every table isn't the same. And every D&D gamer doesn't want the same thing. Every DM doesn't allow the same things. And every player didn't want to play playstyle pushed by a particular edition.
 
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dd.stevenson

Super KY
Yet I do think that old school games better facilitate the imaginative experience, and that it is that which tabletop RPGs excel at more than any other game, more than video games, board games, poker or chess: the play of the imagination. This is why, or one of the (core) reasons why the classic hexcrawl is so appealing, why OSR folks disavow railroading metaplots: there is a sense of immense freedom, a shared mind-space in which—quite literally—anything can happen.
I think your statement is too broad: hexcrawls and non-metaplot games do not necessarily better stimulate every person's imagination. Not every person's mind is stimulated better by a sandbox, or by games where exploration is resolved by player skill.

I think it IS fair to say that this playstyle better stimulates A LOT of people's imaginations, and that the 2E-->3E changes stymied/outright killed this playstyle. But in the process, they better-enabled other playstyles, which--let me repeat--are not necessarily less conducive to the imagination.

Speaking personally, as a guy who enjoys DMing both metaplotty 3E (these days DDN + Paizo AP) games and anything-goes 2E sandbox games, a lot depends on my mood at the time I sit down to play. Sometimes I find that my imagination needs more structure, more fuel, to get fired up. Other times, it needs less.
 
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Mercurius

Legend
Save for a few lines where my poor vision decided to fail me, I read it all. I'm not sure I have thoughts on it just yet, but I hate to see all this effort you placed here simply go un-responded to.

Ha ha, thanks for caring. I like to write, so its OK if no one responds - I actually almost didn't post it as it started as a response to a different thread, then got out of hand. I like to work out ideas while writing, so the main thing is the process itself.

I think if I have to sum up my initial thoughts, what we need is less "must" and more "may". Looking back through other games I play, be they video games or card games or board games, I find I often have the most fun and get the most creative when I am not specifically required to do something, but may make a choice between a few things, or between something and nothing. That sort of gap for personal decision making I think really helps to bring life to an activity. Games that simply run without that choice are boring and while they may be creative games, don't inspire my imagination.

Yeah, I can agree with that and think it is why OSR folks don't like "railroady" games.

Great essay, and excellent analysis. Thanks for posting it. I largely agree with you.

Thanks!

All variants of D&D have their good and bad points. There are things I find positively frustrating about old rule design. The funky arbitrariness is fun at times, but if I actually play a game I want some smooth consistency. I also want more choices than we had with the original B/X approach, without the arbitrary limitations of 1E, but to maintain a sense of simplicity and flexibility that was lost with the rules-bloat in the late 3E era (which Pathfinder has not solved, though it certainly addressed other inconsistencies).

Yup. I grew up on AD&D 1E and while I didn't think this at the time, looking back it really seems like Gary's Game, with his idiosyncrasies (for better or worse). It would be interesting to design a form of D&D that encouraged individual DMs to "Gygaxify" the rules (or "Olgarify", "Mercurify", etc). In some ways early D&D did allow and encourage that, and I never played in a game that the DM didn't house rule to some degree, but the core rules were still quite specific to the Great Gygaxian Mind.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my solution is to assemble my own OSR/OGL hybrid and try to balance the two approaches. I think the 5E development started down this road but I'm not sure whether it will end up there or not.

We can hope!

I like all versions of D&D but one thing the later versions of D&D is missing is a the basic version of the game.
DDN seems like it will fill this gap.

I couldn't agree more. The holy grail of Next is still, for me at least, the basic core game with modular options. Its amazing to me how D&D has never managed to offer this.

"Old school is better and more imaginative."

I just saved you a lot of typing.

That's about 1.87% of the meaning of my post....

The irony, though, is that I've never played an OSR game and haven't played AD&D since...I don't know, the mid-90s? And that was 2e. So if I think "Old school is better" than I'm a fool for playing 3e and 4e over the last 13 years!

...for you. They better facilitate the imaginative experience for you, personally.

This is where, ultimately, you go off the rails. You wander into the usual realm of, "This works best for me, so it works best for everybody." I'm sorry that you spent so much effort, and so many words, to come back to the same old flawed place. To use your own analogy - you forget that we don't all fall in love with the same kinds of people! Your bias gets the better of you in the final lines, I'm afraid.

We are humans. We are varied. We aren't all inspired or facilitated by the same things.

Quite frankly, Umbran, I don't think you grokked the overall "forest" of my post and got hung up on some trees. Refer to KaiiLurker's response, who better understood what I was getting at.

I also take issue with your response not only as overly dismissive, but as relying upon the old "postmodern trump card," which is "everything is subjective," yada yada yada. I was an undergrad once too, Umbran, I get it :p But what next?

I mean, of course I'm talking about myself, what works best for me, and so on. But can't we say anything beyond that or are we stuck in early 90s undergrad pseudo-philosophy? When do we get to post-postmodernism?

I don't entirely subscribe to Mercurious ideas, but I don't think this is a waste, or just another talky rant on defense of the OSR, what I read spoke to me of a very different thing, mostly that it doesn't matter if a game is old school or new school or non-school, as long as it sparks your imagination. For many folks less rules or more mysterious rules are more in therms of imagination (and up to a point I agree), in that way OSR resonates better with them.

That's just it - the imagination is what is key, is what is universal even - akin to a Platonic Form; but what inspires us, what evokes imagination and wonder within us, is individual.

That said, I do think that the trend over the last few decades of what could be called "greater descriptive density" - like in the Moorcock/Jordan example I gave - has led to a generally more passive imagination. To put it somewhat crudely, if I use 100 words to describe a flower, I give your mind less space to create its own image than if I use a more impressionistic 20 words. As a general, but not absolute, rule.

I think this is actually why OSR folks love their Erol Otus and Jeff Dee, even though they are technically (far) inferior to more recent artists like Todd Lockwood and Wayne Reynolds. Otus and Dee are simpler and, in a way, allow for more of the viewer's own imagination to take hold.

Of course many quite technically amazing artists can inspire wonder and evoke imagination, and I personally like Reynolds (not as much Lockwood), but neither of them evoke wonderment or stimulate (my) imagination in the way that some of the iconic (but often crude) art of AD&D did. I think its worth considering why the Otus-esque art is so evocative to old schoolers, that there's something in that which is important to this discussion (as an aside, oddly enough I feel that a lot of the more recent digital paintings offer a more impressionistic, atmospheric quality that the sharper and more technically crafted oil and acrylic painters don't facilitate as well; what is "odd" to me is that the digital medium seems to encourage a more impressionist and atmospheric style).

Another example, more specific to actual game play, is old school combat vs. 4e's tactical battlemat play. I actually quite enjoy 4e combat (at least until the Grind hits in), but I find that its structure - in particular the reliance on the battlemat - is inherently less imaginative, if only by virtue of the fact that the focus of attention is largely on the battlemat, rather than the "mental battlefield."

However up to that I agree, some people can use their imaginations better when they are fully unbound or only bound by little. ("I want to be the best musician in the world!!" "no rule say you can't, go ahead"), but not all of us are like that and that doesn't mean we are less creative (I would argue that in fact it could be the opposite, but have no actual evidence I can only suggest it) having a solid reference frame helps you get away with more stuff, in that regard we like those extra rules ("let's challenge the BBEG to a cooking contest with the fate of the world as the stakes!!" "ok, cooking is a proficiency and both you and the BBEG are proficient let's roll with it").

Art requires limitations - it may be as simple as that.

D&D never lost the secret... it never had it. D&D is just not realizing the secret.

D&D is a game based on human imagination therefore it must deal with hthe difference of human minds. Therefore the only way a big game like D&D can survive, the secret, is:

enforce one way to play (aka single setting games)
or
embrace almost way the game is play (aka multiple playstyle game).

It might be somewhere in-between. D&D Is not "just another generic fantasy game" - nor are most fantasy games truly generic, except for maybe GURPS Fantasy or d6 Fantasy, Fantasy Hero, etc. But even those have their own distinct feel to them. But D&D is less specific than a true single setting game like Tribe 8 or Tekumel or Talislanta. So it is somewhere between GURPS and Tekumel, but with its own body of ideas and tropes, which make it unique and distinctive.

I can only speak for myself in this regard, but even though I may appreciate the design of another game more than D&D - say Ars Magica or Savage Worlds or FATE - I always come back to D&D. It is home. It is similar to the fact that I'm a fan of the Angels baseball team. I don't particularly want to be - I'd rather be a Cardinals fan because they're much better run and with a more optimistic future, and a more interesting history, but I can't quit the Angels. They're my team. Just as if I'm going to play D&D, I don't want to use the Savage World rules set. I want my 20-sided die, goddammit!

In that sense, I think a lot of long-time D&D players will always come back to D&D, even if they try out other games, and even if they like other games more in terms of aesthetic appreciation. I really, really like Savage Worlds and if I was starting gaming all over again and could choose which game I became attached to, it might be Savage Worlds (or Ars Magica, or one or two others). But I love D&D. Its in my blood.
 
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