Never thought I'd say: LARPers, I need you

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
If there's one thing a LARPer (Live Action RolePlaying) knows better than most people, it's what a melee looks like. Us desk/table jockeys, we get nice, safe turns and grids for our combat. A LARPer has tasted death.

So enlighten me please - what are your favorite tactics in a melee? How badly must you be outnumbered before you withdraw? Are some weapons better than others?

Ultimately: how do you survive?
 

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A LARPer has tasted death.

No. We've tasted Nerf. Occasionally dirt. No real death, though. My wife (a veterinarian) has tasted death. She says it tastes like cat nose.

So enlighten me please - what are your favorite tactics in a melee? How badly must you be outnumbered before you withdraw? Are some weapons better than others?

Ultimately: how do you survive?

Larp live combat (as opposed to larp simulated combat - which is basically tabletop combat with humans as the minis) with groups is typically extremely chaotic. There is some attempt to use tactics that falls apart about one-third of the way through maneuvers, as the plan does not survive contact with the enemy. Everyone is shouting at each other to do this and that, and nobody is listening, some folks are either carelessly or intentionally ignoring the rules, and everything goes to heck in a handbasket.

From there, tactics will vary widely depending upon what missile or magic options are in play. You approach a guy with a sword differently than a guy with a nerf gun or spell packets. How your game's healing works matters a great deal, as well, as that really determines how much risk you're willing to take.

Live action PCs are often up against monster/NPCs who have only some vary basic instructions, and are not actually very skilled with the weaponry - because the really skilled folks are the ones most dedicated to the sport of boffer combat, and they're typically playing the PCs. So, there's lots of mooks. You're wading through mooks until you get to the boss monsters. The boss monsters are statted up so that, no matter the skill of the person playing that monster, they'll be able to hold out for cool dramatic time.
 

DMMike, I have a lot of experience sparring with heavy weapons. In my limited experience with LARP and SCA, only very light weapons are used there, but in our own fights we used weapons of authentic weights of 2 pounds or more. When we were smart, we kept our weapons padded with cloth, although once I sparred outside at night with solid metal poles around 4 feet in length. (I deserved what I got that night!)

I can tell you from very small fights (2-3 fighters) that the crucial element of melee is creating an opening, seizing the "right-of-way," or, as Fechbuecher call it, gaining "time" on your opponent. Battles do not even remotely or for a single moment take the form of any conventional roleplaying game, with each combatant whacking at someone in turn, because almost any time you attack an opponent who is on guard, you open yourself up to be struck.

Instead, one person will maneuver into position to attack, and then take the chance. If he fails, he will often be struck in retaliation. Sometimes one person will maneuver so well, or tie up his enemy's weapon cleanly enough that he can strike and be almost assured of a hit. When one person is struck solidly by a heavy weapon, he is usually not in any position to strike back; I suspect that with real weapons that damage on impact, this effect is even greater. The exception to this is sudden strikes made without a strong set-up, which are usually aimed at the lower leg; then the result is often a trade of blows with the other person striking your head, but you can sometimes get away with the free hit.

The next most important element of real life melee develops from the above: the person you fight takes almost all of your attention. If you are engaged with two opponents, you must retreat, circle, and use the terrain to ensure that you won't open yourself up to being hit by one enemy when you attack the other. But a lone fighter may at least hold off two assailants if he concentrates on defense; since he doesn't open himself up frequently, it is difficult to land a hit on him (particularly if he is protected by a shield).

A third crucial point is that of range or reach. I may infer that daggers are excellent in the crush of very close range ("mugging range") and also when one wishes to strike by stealth or get past the armor of a downed enemy, but I have no direct experience with this. What I have seen firsthand is that the dagger is an ineffective weapon. This is not necessarily because it deals less damage, but definitely because sword- or axe-men can attack a daggerman with impunity. Daggers are also weak on the attack since strikes to the knee or below are difficult to make. Worse and perhaps more importantly, daggers are too short to parry effectively, or to snag and "feel out" an enemy weapon. A shield goes a long way towards ameliorating this weakness, since one can block and control an opponent's weapon with the shield. Still, range remains a major issue.

Lastly I want to mention the importance of shields. The shield is a great help, because one is less open after attacking (and indeed under all circumstances) with a shield. In my fights with shields, I found that distances tended to shorten, since spacing is a fighter's primary defense, and with less need for defense one wants to get closer to improve offense. Legs and head both became more attractive targets on an opponent with a shield than the center, because they are generally exposed by small or medium shields. (This may not hold with tower shields.)

I'll conclude by noting that if most rpg designers had wide experiences with classical martial arts, fencing, and dueling with heavier weapons, most popular mechanics dominating the landscape of today would be regarded very differently. The classic turn-taking system would still have its place, but no one would attempt to argue in its favor on grounds of verisimilitude.
 
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Lastly I want to mention the importance of shields. The shield is a great help, because one is less open after attacking (and indeed under all circumstances) with a shield.
Not a LARPer myself, but this is something that was pointed out to me repeatedly by LARPers I know. There's hardly a rpg out there that properly reflects the effectiveness of having a shield, least of all D&D.
 

I used to spar, but not actually LARP.

I was immediately impressed by:

1) How much more effective a properly balanced weapon can be than one that is not. My first homemade sparring longsword was balanced so that its center of mass was about 1" above the hilt. That made it very quick, and let me land more blows and block more effectively.

2) Polearms' effectiveness, especially in tha hands of someone who is already tall. One guy I sparred with used a small shield and a spear. He was over 6'5", and lanky. If he could avoid being engaged, he'd poke at you from behind his allies. However, if he was engaged, he,d use the shield to block...and still poke at others, aiding his allies...who might then be able to aid him. With his wingspan, a 6' spear could land strikes 9+' down a skirmish line. And you really didn't see those strikes coming.

I occasionally used a 2-handed polearm. It was still only 6' long, but it was more massive (but still about the same mass as something like a Greatspear or 2-HD axe). I'd often use this weapon sparring against a guy in our group who was a bodybuilder & bouncer- 6'3" and @ 330lbs of muscle, with biceps as big as some people's waists- who favored 2 weapon style. I'd take up a stance with the weapon pointed straight overhead at my shoulder height. I'm 5'7", so that meant the weapon's head was about 11' in the air. He would charge, and i would use a simple downward swing with gravity aiding my swing. Despite his power, the blow that landed invariably crashed through his 2 weapon catch-block to strike his shoulder or head. Once, I nearly concussed him. It wasn't until he mastered the trick of using the crossed weapons to deflect my initial strike to one side while he stepped the other way that he could close.
 

A third crucial point is that of range or reach. I may infer that daggers are excellent in the crush of very close range ("mugging range") and also when one wishes to strike by stealth or get past the armor of a downed enemy, but I have no direct experience with this. What I have seen firsthand is that the dagger is an ineffective weapon. This is not necessarily because it deals less damage, but definitely because sword- or axe-men can attack a daggerman with impunity. Daggers are also weak on the attack since strikes to the knee or below are difficult to make. Worse and perhaps more importantly, daggers are too short to parry effectively, or to snag and "feel out" an enemy weapon. A shield goes a long way towards ameliorating this weakness, since one can block and control an opponent's weapon with the shield. Still, range remains a major issue.

I've got close to thirty years of experience with re-enactment groups doing dark age/medieval combat, and I can confirm this. It's at least as true with polearms, which have the same advantages against sword- or axe-men. The point is what you do most of your attacks with these weapons, which is also true of the greatsword. I prefer a poleaxe even though a shield is a very useful thing to have. A solid thrust will stop an attack, even if the shield intercepts it.

The only situation where I find a dagger useful is if the fight has degenerated to grappling, which can happen. At those distance, it's one of very few weapons that are usable. Most fights don't get to that stage. I really don't have the experience to judge Rapier/Dagger combinations, though my understanding is that the combination usually has the rapier as the offensive weapon with the dagger for defence.
 

Not a LARPer myself, but this is something that was pointed out to me repeatedly by LARPers I know. There's hardly a rpg out there that properly reflects the effectiveness of having a shield, least of all D&D.

Yup. I virtually never got hit when I sparred with a shield. Though when I did, it was a leg or a head shot more often, since that's by default, not covered.

Actual sword fights also didn't have as much clashing of the blades. That's hard on the edge (dings and dulls them).

More often, you'd exchange a few blows, with somebody scoring a hit or stepping in with a fancy throw, trap or grappel. Then it was stab with a knife, or wrestle time. As learned from an actual weapons master.
 

Oh, well if we want to bring historic re-creation combat into the discussion, that is a slightly different beast. I've also spent my time there - my favorite being polearm.

Note that there's two basic forms of re-creation fights - tournament (usually 1-on-1, occasionally a handful against a handful), and full melees. They play out very differently, and use much different tactics indeed.

I agree with the others - daggers have no place in a fight with heavily armored opponents. They're only useful if you're reduced to a grapple, or the opponent is down for the moment, and you've lost your other weapons and need something for coup de gras.

Shields are nice - in the sense that if you're using a one-handed weapon, you're kind of silly not to use one. But, the shield is not an end-all-be-all. It is not uncommon to see someone defeat a shield with two weapons, or with a polearm, in tournament combat. A second weapon often serves well to parry, and a polearm has reach and a major haft that works well for blocking as well. Tournament fights that mix fights between sword-and-board, polearm, and two-weapon fighting generally come down not to the weapons used, but to the skill of the fighters, in my observation. YMMV.

Note that there are common tactics that would be used against shields that are a bit uncommon in historical re-creation combats. Imagine solidly embedding an axe or a 12' long spear into a shield - it drags the shield down, and in the case of the spear, can even hamper the shield-user's movement. I've seen this simulated for the spear by one of our local SCAdians who is known for his spear work - he has a big suction-cup on the end or a 12' spear, and has laid many a shield-wearer low with it. And in a real fight, a shield can well be sundered (as can the haft of a polearm) where these things are pretty much indestructible in re-creation.

Of course, in a full melee where there are archers, shields are a much more important thing. Arrows are death.
 


Out of curiosity, what's everyone's opinion of this 5-minute reenactment & commentary? I don't have experience with battles of this size.

The only situation where I find a dagger useful is if the fight has degenerated to grappling, which can happen. At those distance, it's one of very few weapons that are usable. Most fights don't get to that stage. I really don't have the experience to judge Rapier/Dagger combinations, though my understanding is that the combination usually has the rapier as the offensive weapon with the dagger for defence.
They often used bucklers as well as daggers, which I don't really understand - I have a lot of trouble parrying or controlling my opponent's weapon with anything of that size, but historically I know it was done. Have you seen enough to say how it works? Some have claimed that the buckler was used simply as an extended handguard for the sword, but I don't think I'd want a dagger for this. The thing is that if you forget the off-hand, you can stand linearly and gain another 6" of reach; this is always the way I prefer to fight in a small skirmish.

Umbran said:
the shield is not an end-all-be-all.
No, it isn't, although I have found that a shield is a clear advantage when fighting against someone who has only one weapon. With two weapons (as you mention) it's possible to tie up the shield with your off-hand, but I'd prefer a sword and shield over two swords.

Still, I do understand that a heavily armored warrior generally finds the shield an unnecessary encumbrance. Historically, shields faded away as armor improved, and it isn't hard to see that they must harm mobility in an adventuring context. After all, how does someone swing across chasms, swim through rivers, climb cliffs, or hurry through rough terrain with a big shield? I've never really gone tramping around pretending to rescue maidens from dragons, but from climbing slopes or getting buffeted against trees, I can say that adventurers would prize swords over spears and axes, since a sword is quite effective without a shield, and still leaves a person with good mobility.
 

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