D&D 5E Does D&D Next need +2/-2 modifiers?

[Wulfgar76]

Advantage/Disadvantage is great, but it is a pretty hefty bonus/penalty, roughly equal to a +4/-4.
Sometimes it feels like Advantage means auto-success, and Disadvantage auto-failure.

I find myself wanting to use +2/-2 circumstantial modifiers on some attacks, saves and checks when I don't want a bonus/penalty as extreme as (Dis) Advantage.

Would inserting +2/-2 into the game add a layer of depth, or just a layer of needless complexity?

 

[variant]

Advantage/Disadvantage is not the same as a +4/-4. Advantage and Disadvantage doesn't change the DC the person can hit, only the chance of actually hitting it.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I fully expect a modifiers and penalties chart for the anti-adv/disadv style of play. Takes all of a page.

Or pull one from your favorite edition.

 

[Wulfgar76]

I fully expect a modifiers and penalties chart for the anti-adv/disadv style of play. Takes all of a page.

I don't know, I seem to recall the Developers saying they are categorically opposed to little modifiers.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I don't know, I seem to recall the Developers saying they are categorically opposed to little modifiers.

So you're answering your own question? This is all rhetorical?

 

[Tovec]

I agree adv/disadv is more than +2/-2 but didn't someone crunch the numbers a while ago and figure out it was a little north of +/- 3 instead of 4?

Beyond that? I think there is a place for the +2/-2 modifiers but I think that it can get to be a lot and that in many ways adv/disadv is more intuitive in places.

 

[Zardnaar]

They should probably have some. +2 to hit for flanking, +1 for higher ground/mounted etc. You do not need as many as 3rd or 4th ed though.

 

[Thyrwyn]

If they do add modifiers, I would hope they follow the advantage/disadvantage model: you either get one or the other, and the presence of any number of either cancel the other. Steer clear of adding/subtracting multiple modifiers and keep the game moving.

 

[Lokiare]

Advantage/Disadvantage is great, but it is a pretty hefty bonus/penalty, roughly equal to a +4/-4.
Sometimes it feels like Advantage means auto-success, and Disadvantage auto-failure.

I find myself wanting to use +2/-2 circumstantial modifiers on some attacks, saves and checks when I don't want a bonus/penalty as extreme as (Dis) Advantage.

Would inserting +2/-2 into the game add a layer of depth, or just a layer of needless complexity?

First off it is dependent on the DC that you are targeting. Here is the chart from http://anydice.com/program/123c



What you learn from this chart is that the bonus can vary from +/- 0.5 to +/- 5.95 and is nearly always dependent on the DC you are trying to reach.

What happens is with advantage you end up with weird situations where it is better to have advantage than it is to get some kind of static bonus, or vice versa.

It neither supplants fiddly +'s and -'s nor is a good system to represent them.

Personally I'd rather they implement something where after the first bonus, any additional bonus is a flat +1 and have everything stack. So if you had +3, +2, +1, +2 then you would simply do +3+1+1+1 for +6. Where everything stacks so you don't have to worry about that. Then have all of that math pre-calculated ahead of time and use things like advantage/disadvantage for in game modifiers so you can quickly adjudicate during play. I'd also have (dis)advantage cancel out on a 1 to 1 basis so that if you have more disadvantages than advantages you'd roll 2d20 and take the lowest and if you have more advantages than disadvantages you'd roll 2d20 and take the highest. If you had equal amounts they would cancel out and you'd roll 1d20.

So fiddly bonuses and penalties get added outside of game play time, and (dis)advantage gets added during play.

 

[Jester David]

I like Advantage/ Disadvantage as it's easy to apply on the fly or even retroactively. It's simple. It's good for those situations where the person shouldn't fail and the swinginess of a d20 (with it's range of 1 to 20) is simply too great for the narrative.

But I do like the "DM's Best Friend". Advantage is a lovely additional tool, but it's NOT a replacement for a simple +2/-2. Sometimes, things should just impair your ability a little not halve your chances of hitting. Sometimes a bonus or circumstance should enable you to do more than otherwise possible.

Aiding Another is a good example. Two (trained) people working together should be able to do more than one person working alone. They should be able to push open a sturdier door, lift a heavier block, collaborate on a trickier bit of crafting, and the like. But if it's just advantage it doesn't matter if the entire town comes to help you build a barn, you can do it just as well yourself if you're lucky.