Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outsold D&D by 2:1 in 2013

[Jester David]

It's not surprising that D&D sales are low when they're not actively producing anything, but it is a bit surprising (on a continuing basis) that PF specifically is doing well.

But a good portion of Pathfinder's business is selling Core Rulebooks. D&D 4e should still be selling, especially the PHB and related Essentials products. Years after it went out of print, the 3e core books still pop-up on amazon's bestseller lists. And until D&D5 is released, the 4e books are still the easiest gateway to the hobby and *should* be selling at roughly the same rate in 2013 as they did in 2009 or 2010.

 

[gamerprinter]

I think Paizo is a great company with lots of great material, but nothing will topple D&D...but D&D and Hasbro.

At least according to ICV2, Pathfinder has been outselling D&D 4e for most of 4e release period. I'm not saying that will be maintained with the release of 5e, but WotC/Hasbro seems to have been doing a fine job of toppling itself on its own from its marketing gaffs and more. I'm sure 5e will sell fine at least upon release, but over the long haul I don't know if it will keep overselling Pathfinder after release. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think there needs to be another perspective to this story: even with such meager releases by WotC for D&D, Paizo could only sell 2-1/2 times as much product as WotC.

Given what they're working with, that seems pretty impressive. After all, they're selling a game that in substance is fifteen years old and the base of which has been available for free that entire time. They've made some minor changes, and all of those changes are also available for free in a user-friendly format.

They don't have the brand recognition of D&D, they're putting out only a couple of new books of actual game rules each year, their setting and peripheral content are at best mediocre, and they don't have much of substance to sell, but a fair number of people are buying what they're selling anyway. Anyone else could release an OGL-derived game and they'd have no recourse to stop their competition, and anyone could release another different game to attract disenchanted gamers and fill the void. When PF started, no one knew if it would take at all.

It's quite a business achievement for them that they're selling anything in this context..

 

[delericho]

Firstly: Well done to Paizo - that's pretty spectacular.

Secondly: Interesting as it is, it's a pretty meaningless data point. Not just because D&D is in mid-edition-change, but also because it excludes waaaay too much - internet sales, subscriptions, and whatever else I've not thought of.

 

[DaveMage]

I'd say let's wait until 2016 to take a fair measurement, but I'm not sure that will be possible in the next decade. If Wizards is really going to start producing a different classic D&D setting every 18-24 months for the life of D&D5, Paizo better batten down the hatches. That's a hell of a storm to weather when you're up to "Bestiary 4" and your next two books are the "Advanced Class Guide" and the optimizer-love-sonnet "Strategy Guide."

It depends on what WotC means by releasing a setting. If what they mean is what they did for 4E (i.e. a large-type/lots of white-space campaign book, a player's book and an adventure - and that's it), then Paizo has nothing to worry about.

All that said, I really don't think Paizo cares where they rank as long as they meet their revenue goals, which are likely much, much less than WotC's for D&D.

 

[Ace]

I think this says the opposite of what some think it does, namely that D&D is still a hot, hot product.

4e is basically moribund with fewer new groups forming, basically no upgrades to purchase and its, arguably, a fairly unpopular edition. Also a great chunk of the D&D playbase is waiting for 5e to come out.

Despite that its still able to get 50% of the Pathfinders sales.

Thats not bad and if 5e is good Piazo will have a very solid competitor on its hand.

 

[fjw70]

Again the survey isn't saying PF is selling 2.5 times more product than D&D. It is saying that 2.5 more retailers report that PF is a "best seller."

If you want to argue at least argue about what the survey says.

 

[Deset Gled]

I don't see the value in this metric. I mean, I bet Wizards does more D&D business between August and December 2014 than Paizo does Pathfinder business all year, but that's equally nonsense -- D&D5 will be brand new, so of course it's going to fly off shelves.

Assuming that statement is true (and that's quite an assumption), it's certainly not nonsense.

Businesses, especially publicly traded ones, have quotas to meet every month. A company that has regular income has a reliable way to cover overhead all year round; their employees are more secure, day-to-day operations are much less stressful, and there's less guesswork involved in making projections. And product that sells consistently gets a regular shelf spot.

A company that does all its business for the year in a short period is a rough place. They generally hire more temps (i.e. freelance designers rather than long-term world makers). They downsize at the end of every year. And if you're sales projections are off by as little as 10% during your big sales push, you're completely screwed (either you have no time to capitalize on increased demand, or you have more leftover stock than you can afford to own). And product that only sells once a year only gets shelf space once a year.

The fact that Paizo has been consistently performing well for a long time and WotC has been consistently up-and-down is a big deal. For anyone on the business side of RPGs, its a really, really big deal.

 

[gamerprinter]

Again the survey isn't saying PF is selling 2.5 times more product than D&D. It is saying that 2.5 more retailers report that PF is a "best seller."

If you want to argue at least argue about what the survey says.

The main point is only ICV2 and this survey posts any kind of retail report regarding sales of RPG products - at least they are legitimate. There is no other source of information out there - aside from anecdotal points of view. Nobody is saying anything to the contrary...

 

[fjw70]

The main point is only ICV2 and this survey posts any kind of retail report regarding sales of RPG products - at least they are legitimate. There is no other source of information out there - aside from anecdotal points of view. Nobody is saying anything to the contrary...

I am not arguing whether the survey is good or bad. I am just trying to make it clear what the survey is saying.

if I have misread the survey then please correct me.