Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[pemerton]

The balanced party, I would hazard would be the fastest.

covering different functions is inherently valuable; so it's better to have a diverse party.

Even if one changes the group makeup more, though, would a party of all clerics be better than the balanced party? Two clerics and two wizards? Not a chance in my mind.

Would a party of (say) 9th or higher level really slow down, or lose its generic adventuring effectiveness, by swapping (say) a wizard for a rogue? Or a druid for a fighter? It's not at all clear to me why it would.

 

[Imaro]

From the 4e PHB, p 54:

Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power.​

That is to say, martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense - they are not like spells (arcane formulas) or prayers (divine magic). But nor are they "ordinary". Through strength and willpower, built up via training and dedication, martial PCs do extraordinary things that exceed the capabilities of mere mortals. REH's Conan is an example of a martial character in this sense. In LotR Boromir and Aragorn are both examples. It's clear within the fiction of LotR that neither is a wizard, nor using magic in the same way that Sauron does, or the user of a palantir does, or even the way that Feanor did to craft the Silmarils. Like Conan, each is drawing on his strength, willpower and dedication to do amazing things.

I'm finding your explanation a little convoluted and it also seems to ignore certain things that fall under the martial power source like martial practices... I mean when I look at some of the martial practices like Decipher Script (You can learn to read any language fluently in 10 mins regardless of whether you've ever been exposed to it or not) or Warded Campsite (You and your allies instantly awaken whenever something enters the area and cannot be surprised) they seem borderline if not straight up re-skinned magical abilities and seem pretty much beyond something Conan, Boromir and even Aragorn could achieve without magical help and/or specialized equipment...

 

[Ahnehnois]

Would a party of (say) 9th or higher level really slow down, or lose its generic adventuring effectiveness, by swapping (say) a wizard for a rogue? Or a druid for a fighter? It's not at all clear to me why it would.

With a rogue, you'd lose out on stealth an perception, meaning you'd have no scout and be vulnerable to attack. You'd also be down some nice damage on occasion, and your party wouldn't have the handy ability to evade area attacks. If you were in a situation with traps and secret doors and that kind of thing, you'd be struggling to cover it. A rogue is relatively easy to do without (easier in PF because class skills don't mean much), but still useful.

Swapping a druid for a fighter is a quality for quantity swap in combat terms. You'd run the risk of being helpless against opponents with high spine numbers (AC and attack), because it's almost impossible to duplicate what a fighter can do in that regard. In almost any combat situation, someone will have to be actively engaged in melee, and without a martial character you're at a huge disadvantage. If the druid takes an animal companion and really focuses on defensive enhancements for himself and the animal, they might be able to soak damage effectively, but they'll struggle to contribute offensively, so the rest of the party has to cover the slack.

Of course, you can run a game with any party composition and make it work. A balanced party is just a bit better.

I'm finding your explanation a little convoluted and it also seems to ignore certain things that fall under the martial power source like martial practices... I mean when I look at some of the martial practices like Decipher Script (You can learn to read any language fluently in 10 mins regardless of whether you've ever been exposed to it or not) or Warded Campsite (You and your allies instantly awaken whenever something enters the area and cannot be surprised) they seem borderline if not straight up magical abilities and seem pretty much beyond something Conan, Boromir and even Aragorn could achieve without magical help...

Or, simply, healing surges, sudden bursts of damage, and all the garden-variety abilities. Even the text that was quoted seems to have a message of something like "martial is 'non-traditional' magic".

 

[Wicht]

I would rather, for game speed and balance, run a party without a rogue than a fighter. The fighters superior hit points and consistent damage make combats faster and easier. But for over-all survivability, I would rather run a party without a fighter than a rogue. That perception is rather useful. Though the Ranger can actually do pretty well as a stand in for the rogue in certain situations, and if I was going to lose the rogue, I would rather replace said Rogue with a Ranger. The Cleric is actually the one class, in my experience, that's hardest to replace, though we currently have one game going without a cleric. It certainly makes the dungeon crawling sloggier.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The Cleric is actually the one class, in my experience, that's hardest to replace, though we currently have one game going without a cleric. It certainly makes the dungeon crawling sloggier.

I don't know about that. Of course, PF has two alt-clerics (druid and oracle) who are reasonably apt substitute. But even barring that, you've got other casters with healing (witch, bard, even the tertiary casters can do a decent job) and UMD/CLW combos. The healing part is very replaceable; the other parts are very replaceable.

To me, the hardest thing to replace is a fighter. If you don't have some credible martial presence, you're starting off every combat at a disadvantage.

 

[Wicht]

Eh, the sheer amount the cleric is able to heal is hard to replicate. Druids do alright, but they have to devote their spells to it up front and just aren't as efficient. We haven't much used oracles and have never used witches, but the efficiency of healing still suffers. The group is making do with a Paladin, but its just slower and grittier.

And I agree about the essentially of the fighter or at least one of his two substitutes (Ranger or Paladin).

Heh - in my experience, the easiest class to do without is the wizard.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Eh, the sheer amount the cleric is able to heal is hard to replicate.

True, but how much do you really need?

And I agree about the essentially of the fighter or at least one of his two substitutes (Ranger or Paladin).

Ranger of course is a very nice class; probably the most popular through my entire 3e experience (and PF upgrades it); pretty viable cover for a fighter and a rogue. But yes, some full BAB, high-HD character is very important.

Heh - in my experience, the easiest class to do without is the wizard.

Yeah. The biggest thing I worry about is swarms and area damage. Also the knowledge skills, which are really useful in driving play forward from a DM perspective. But I see parties without a wiz/sorc/etc. or a rogue regularly, parties without a cleric/druid regularly, and parties without a fighter/ranger/etc. never. I don't recall ever seeing a PC party without some melee character.

 

[Wicht]

True, but how much do you really need?

I play rough as a DM.

 

[Minigiant]

When it comes to class swapping, it really goes down to DM style and the adventure type. The importance of a class and features changes whether you are exploring in a dungeon, dealing with a hostile tribe on the plains, outmaneuvering a blizzard, organizing a regicide, or stealing from a secured magical laboratory.

 

[Tuft]

From the 4e PHB, p 54:

Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power.​

That is to say, martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense - they are not like spells (arcane formulas) or prayers (divine magic). But nor are they "ordinary". Through strength and willpower, built up via training and dedication, martial PCs do extraordinary things that exceed the capabilities of mere mortals. REH's Conan is an example of a martial character in this sense. In LotR Boromir and Aragorn are both examples. It's clear within the fiction of LotR that neither is a wizard, nor using magic in the same way that Sauron does, or the user of a palantir does, or even the way that Feanor did to craft the Silmarils. Like Conan, each is drawing on his strength, willpower and dedication to do amazing things.

I'm finding your explanation a little convoluted and it also seems to ignore certain things that fall under the martial power source like martial practices... I mean when I look at some of the martial practices like Decipher Script (You can learn to read any language fluently in 10 mins regardless of whether you've ever been exposed to it or not) or Warded Campsite (You and your allies instantly awaken whenever something enters the area and cannot be surprised) they seem borderline if not straight up re-skinned magical abilities and seem pretty much beyond something Conan, Boromir and even Aragorn could achieve without magical help and/or specialized equipment...

But reskinning used to such an absolute craze here on Enworld not that far ago... and it is easy to see how you can use it to solve the whole problem in one mighty Gordian Knot Chop!

You just reskin a wizard build, and call it a "fighter" instead. All magical spells are re-labelled as daily non-magical exploits. When such a character uses Passwall, for example, it is entirely non-magical. He just uses his "extraordinary training that exceeds the capabilities of mere mortals" to walk straight through a solid wall. It is an effect of training, not magic... or when he uses Fly, it is just his willpower and stamina overcoming gravitation, not magic in any form.

Just swap a few words here and there, and the problem is all solved! We get a fighter that can do all the things that a wizard can do. He can even use morning katas to refocus into the exploits he wants to use that day...

Of course, it is a fighter without much in the way of armor, HP or BAB, but that ought not stop a resourceful player! After all, a persistent claim is that wizard builds out-fight the fighter...

See there, a simple fix! Wasn't that what the entire thread was about?





Oh, and finally: