Be honest, how long would it really take you to notice all of this stuff...?

[Pickles JG]

I imagine that 4e minions must spend a lot of time at bars drinking and commiserating with each other about how the PCs are playing "rocket tag" with them. Hopefully they never get in bar fights.

It also places a very different set of considerations on the steps one takes to prepare for, initiate, or avoid battles. It could be argued that all low-level D&D is "rocket tag", as one decent hit can drop any character to negatives. That tension and sense of danger is a very large part of the D&D experience. I often think that players play much smarter at lower levels because of it.

I am not sure 4e minions think of themselves as such -they are the heroes of their own stories, sadly their stories are not the ones we are telling.

We came across minions in Feng Shui but I used to argue against adding minions to 3e. I thought they were already there - low level monsters that were killed incidentally (eg ogres when we were fighting a pack of giants). The difference is that those ogres posed no credible threat to PCs while minions do - in fact they are scary if you cannot take them down quickly. 5e should sort this out to everyone's satisfaction as mooks remain threatening but will go down fast.

Low level D&D was not tense in my 3e experience (I cannot really remember 1e - frustrating is my vague recollection).
In 3e at low levels monster damage could fairly easily knock you unconscious but was very unlikely to take you to -10. High level is where it got tense & dangerous when a monster could deal 40 points of damage in a round so you were close to death if you had 30 HP. Neither is very satisfactory - -8 hp at level 1 or 2 is too far gone to heal efficiently so you were out for the day or the next one too. Bleating & running when you have a big chunk of HP also seem lame.
4e evened this out but probably made it a bit too safe as characters hardly ever die & the real risk is a TPK when too many PCs go down quickly. I shall lok forward to seeing how 5e does it.

...beginning characters with triple hit point

Triple what? This reflects your blinkered view. Nothing has HP for PCs to triple - I don't think 4e has to be consistent with 1e for it to be internally consistent. Minions are obvious issue here but it's a separate one.

D&D is a terrible simulation. 4e took what D&D was best for - killing things & taking their stuff & made robust consistent rules for doing that.

 

[Zardnaar]

It might have not been playtested well enough, but I think it's clear that 3e, and subsequently PF, are the products of better research and testing than any other other rpg ever made, by a ludicrous margin. Maybe the bar isn't that high, but give them some credit.

They took a ton of feedback from the existing 2e crowd and really nailed it. If you go back twenty years, it would be hard to imagine a version of D&D as universally functional as 3e. That it has its problems was inevitable, and it's unfortunate that they haven't been addressed.

Well, they did fix Haste in the revision, and they started patching polymorph in various ways towards the end. A little slow on their part, perhaps.

The fighter did get screwed in the new save system a bit, that's for sure. And the infinite diversity in infinite combinations of the spell system is inherently problematic. So yes, these are real things. But compared to the limitations of the AD&D chassis or the huge fundamental problems with 4e or the incoherence we've seen with the 5e playtests, these seem like nitpicks.

And that's kind of the thread topic. It seems that because 3e is so well-known (in part because of the OGL and in part because of its sheer popularity) it gets held to a higher standard. I wish people would take the level of scrutiny they apply to 3e, and apply it equally to other games.

While it may be true that most groups aren't active on the internet, I think wands of CLW are probably pretty well known.

In early 3.0 we did not use wands of CLW and I do not think they were even in the DMG as I have lost mine. I played with a Pathfinder group as late as a few weeks ago who were not using wands of CLW. I am playing OSR games now and some of the new clopnes more or less use d210 mechanics but with classses based on 1st ed or whatever and it turns out that play style is still fun just without the byzantine mechanics at times.

 

[Lanefan]

In early 3.0 we did not use wands of CLW and I do not think they were even in the DMG as I have lost mine.

They were, after a fashion: craft magic item + wand can reproduce a spell effect = wand of CLW.

I am not sure 4e minions think of themselves as such -they are the heroes of their own stories, sadly their stories are not the ones we are telling.

And right here is where it falls apart. If they are the heroes of their own stories that makes them heroes; whose stories could just as easily be the ones being told by the play-of-game. That you've instead chosen to tell the story associated with the PCs means nothing; those other guys are still just as much heroes as the PCs in the eyes of the greater game world - and should logically have the stats (and h.p.) to reflect it.

Low level D&D was not tense in my 3e experience (I cannot really remember 1e - frustrating is my vague recollection).
In 3e at low levels monster damage could fairly easily knock you unconscious but was very unlikely to take you to -10. High level is where it got tense & dangerous when a monster could deal 40 points of damage in a round so you were close to death if you had 30 HP. Neither is very satisfactory - -8 hp at level 1 or 2 is too far gone to heal efficiently so you were out for the day or the next one too. Bleating & running when you have a big chunk of HP also seem lame.

Low-level 1e is - or should be - very dangerous. The heroes are those who simply manage to survive. At higher levels it gets more survivable given reasonable play.

I found 3e to be about equally deadly all the way along, less so than 1e at low level but more so once things got going.

4e evened this out but probably made it a bit too safe as characters hardly ever die & the real risk is a TPK when too many PCs go down quickly.

That's certainly how it looks, that the whole party largely rise and fall together.

I shall lok forward to seeing how 5e does it.

Don't.

Instead, look forward to how you're going to tell 5e to do it, as in theory the modules will be there to make it play more like 3e or 4e (not sure about their 1e emulator yet) depending on preference and how you decide to kitbash it.

Lanefan

 

[Pickles JG]

And right here is where it falls apart. If they are the heroes of their own stories that makes them heroes; whose stories could just as easily be the ones being told by the play-of-game. That you've instead chosen to tell the story associated with the PCs means nothing; those other guys are still just as much heroes as the PCs in the eyes of the greater game world - and should logically have the stats (and h.p.) to reflect it.

I was being metaphorical, I just meant from the point of view of the minions the world revolves around them. There is very little chance of their stories being told as they are not the PCs. They probably don't care after all they don't really have a point of view as they do not exist. The greater game world does not have any eyes; anything is only significant to the extent it effects the players, including the DM

Instead, look forward to how you're going to tell 5e to do it, as in theory the modules will be there to make it play more like 3e or 4e (not sure about their 1e emulator yet) depending on preference and how you decide to kitbash it.
Lanefan

It seems to me like it's really 2e with far better designed systems.
4e does what I want already & my home groups being resistant to forking out for yet another edition. Some of them I am sure would prefer it though others would like it to be more like 3e which I would not. I am not sure how these modules will make it more like what we would all want given that is very different.

As a 4e fan it seems a million miles away from what I want (specifically a deeply tactical game) while it looks a lot like 1e in flavour. I suspect your preferences colour it the other way

The rest of my play is likely to be in OP settings where we will be stuck with the default.

 

[Savage Wombat]

You know, the problem with wands of CLW had nothing to do with their being wands. All it did was save you 25% of the cost of buying fifty healing potions, which had existed in previous editions. The problem was the ease with which PCs could make their own healing items. If 2e characters had been able to find fifty healing potions every adventure and carry them around, they would have.

 

[Obryn]

And right here is where it falls apart. If they are the heroes of their own stories that makes them heroes; whose stories could just as easily be the ones being told by the play-of-game. That you've instead chosen to tell the story associated with the PCs means nothing; those other guys are still just as much heroes as the PCs in the eyes of the greater game world - and should logically have the stats (and h.p.) to reflect it.

Eh? The point is that they aren't the heroes.

You could run a game full of goblin and kobold PCs, where you have most human minions running around.

 

[Lanefan]

I was being metaphorical, I just meant from the point of view of the minions the world revolves around them. There is very little chance of their stories being told as they are not the PCs. They probably don't care after all they don't really have a point of view as they do not exist. The greater game world does not have any eyes; anything is only significant to the extent it effects the players, including the DM

And as in theory everything in the game world affects the DM, it's all significant.

And the non-PC types certainly *do* exist in the game world. Game-world inhabitants without a player attached don't go around with little "NPC' stickers on their foreheads; they're an integral part of the setting just like the PCs are. I don't subscribe to the PCs-as-special-snowflakes school of thought.

As a 4e fan it seems a million miles away from what I want (specifically a deeply tactical game) while it looks a lot like 1e in flavour. I suspect your preferences colour it the other way.

Hey, I don't mind me some deep tactics now and then; I just don't want that to be the whole game, or close. 1e with the ability for deep tactics when desired? Sounds great!

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Eh? The point is that they aren't the heroes.

You could run a game full of goblin and kobold PCs, where you have most human minions running around.

They aren't the *played* heroes. But, as was pointed out earlier, in their own minds they're still heroes - and who knows, one of them could be your next character when the current one dies...and I can't speak for you but I sure as hell don't want my character to be permanently stuck at a total of 1 h.p. On the other hand, if the new PC comes in at 57 h.p. then it had 57 h.p. before the player took it over...

If internal consistency is at all important then every creature has some h.p. vaguely commensurate to a few factors including size, toughness, and life experience. The average Human peasant might have 3 or 4 h.p. total; not many, but enough to survive a punch in the head from another commoner. The average run-of-the-mill Hill Giant might have 40 h.p.; not many in Giant terms but enough to survive a punch in the head from another Giant and surely enough to survive a few chops from a Human's wimpy little sword.

Lan-"the world works as the world will, whether PCs are there or not"-efan

 

[FireLance]

The standard modifier is completely broken. A feeble character of sufficient level can break down a door. The same problem that existed specifically with BAB/THAC0 and saves in earlier editions now applies to everything. Remember that article about how 3e actually simulates basic things like applications of strength and everyday skills up through level 6 or so? 4e totally fails that test. You've got at-will magic for everyone, you've got self-healing for nonmagical characters, you've got minions whose basic numbers don't withstand any scrutiny at all, beginning characters with triple hit points. Any one of those could be considered world-breaking.

So, it fails in just about every aspect of a simulation, and it is more of a fantasy role playing game than a rules-as-physics simulation of a world?

 

[Obryn]

They aren't the *played* heroes. But, as was pointed out earlier, in their own minds they're still heroes - and who knows, one of them could be your next character when the current one dies...and I can't speak for you but I sure as hell don't want my character to be permanently stuck at a total of 1 h.p. On the other hand, if the new PC comes in at 57 h.p. then it had 57 h.p. before the player took it over...

If internal consistency is at all important then every creature has some h.p. vaguely commensurate to a few factors including size, toughness, and life experience. The average Human peasant might have 3 or 4 h.p. total; not many, but enough to survive a punch in the head from another commoner. The average run-of-the-mill Hill Giant might have 40 h.p.; not many in Giant terms but enough to survive a punch in the head from another Giant and surely enough to survive a few chops from a Human's wimpy little sword.

Lan-"the world works as the world will, whether PCs are there or not"-efan

If you have a kobold PC, he's going to have however many hit points a PC of his class, level, and stats would normally have. If it's being treated as a minion, a kobold has 1. I don't see what the problem is? I mean, those minion kobolds are just imaginary and who cares what you imagine they might imagine? They're not the PCs, because no players are playing them.

Things "off screen" have no hit points, since hit points are a gameplay convenience and stuff "off screen" is, by definition, not being played at the time and thus needs no gameplay convenience.

And the PCs deserve to be treated differently because (1) real people are playing them at a game table, presumably to have a good time, and (2) they are in 99% of all play time, so they're clearly more important than anything else. Who would hand someone a 8th level character with 1 hit point? That sounds like a terrible thing to do to your friends!