CapnZapp
Legend
My point was that I can think of several very valid reasons why PF won't work but that the idea you stay out of PF specifically because of the massive scenario support wasn't one of them...
D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning
- Thread starter dmccoy1693
- Start date
BryonD
Hero
Understood. I was simply replying to someone who said that *WAS* the reason (at least in their argument, I doubt it really is for them either).
The context of my reply was the understanding that quantity of material itself was a singular roadblock. So I was responding in that context.
I agree with you that this context doesn't come close to describing the full picture.
Trickster Spirit
Explorer
Understood. For what it's worth, I'd love to see more than what's on that schedule myself - I'll join you calling for more 5E material.
I'm not convinced that Wizard's will find it worth their time to listen to us, though.
Sorry, I probably shouldn't have used the phrase "slow and steady wins the race", as I think it confuses the issue.
I actively believe that WotC is indifferent to "the race" - staying ahead of Paizo on ICv2 or even making money on the RPG books is immaterial to them. They're pleased the core books sold well, because it means there's a large, well-engaged D&D audience out there, but it's not gamers' hardcovers budget they're after.
Let me ask you this - if Wizards never puts out another D&D book again, would you go see a blockbuster D&D movie made by Universal?
(Assuming it's not terrible, obviously. Ultimately the movie will still have to be a good one to become the kind of smash hit they're hoping for.)
I'm not asking if you'd be more likely to if they put out more books - it's a binary question with a binary answer. Will you go see the movie? Will you take your non-gamer family and friends to the theater to see it?
That's the only question WotC / Hasbro is concerned with.
You're getting those replies because people were burnt by previous editions' floods. Obviously they could release more content than they are now and not flood the market with 5E material, but I'm not sure I see a convincing reason they should.
Because while I too am a tabletop gamer who'd love to see more subclasses / magic items / campaign settings / what have you for 5E... I also have plenty to play with already... There are years worth of campaigns to be had with the core books alone, and I don't think releasing any non-AP products in 2015 will make the slightest bit of difference to the success or failure of D&D at the box office (or the video game box office for that matter, given that's an even bigger industry than movies).
In short, we are in full agreement when it comes to our personal preferences, but I don't think they matter to the success of the brand in the slightest.
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My interest in 5e is waning because of access (or lack thereof) to the game. One group of friends greatly prefers Pathfinder. Another group of friend greatly prefers 4e. There are no stores hosting 5e games within a 90 minute drive of my house.
That said, I do play in a 5 e game once a month. It's fun, but I'm not into it the way I was into 4e and LFR. This is not to say that I liked 4e more than 5e. It's a toss-up in terms of my preference. The key is that I had much easier access to 4e games and players willing/wanting to play 4e during those years.
My personal sob story.
That said, I do play in a 5 e game once a month. It's fun, but I'm not into it the way I was into 4e and LFR. This is not to say that I liked 4e more than 5e. It's a toss-up in terms of my preference. The key is that I had much easier access to 4e games and players willing/wanting to play 4e during those years.
My personal sob story.
BryonD
Hero
Yes.
Let me ask you this: if Wizards never puts out another D&D book again, would you go see a blockbuster Pathfinder movie made by Universal?
Same goes for the product we want.
Understood and I respect that goal.
But I don't think this plan advances that goal.
D&D has VERY deep roots and the fan base could abandon it altogether for several years before popular culture stopped using as short hand for "things geeks do for fun".
But Pathfinder was already gaining recognition on them. The needle of the hype meter was not jumping, but it was ticking a little.
(And this isn't remotely "RAH! RAH! Pathfinder!", I'm completely on your point about the Universal movie here)
They have their own comics, they have a TOR book deal.
They are run by smart savvy people. Frankly, they seem to be WAY more in tune with fans and popular culture than WotC.
Give it a few more years at this pace and the Pathfinder movie becomes just as likely as the D&D movie.
Yes, I've got plenty of 5E stuff for decades of game. That completely misses the point. I've got plenty of PF stuff for CENTURIES of game. Should I dump 5E and go back to PF?
I am a big fan of both games. I've played a ton of PF and 5E is new, so that gives it a leg up. But every month that passes 5E is still 5E and it has been that much longer since I played PF, so that starts canceling out. And at the same time, I still buy PF stuff when it looks cool. And I read stuff and go "this looks fun". This doesn't appear to be something that will happen much for 5E.
I know what makes 5E my game of choice in March 2015. What difference does my years of backlog make to which game is my preference in March 2017?
Assuming any studio will be interested in a D&D movie in the future is risky. And keeping 5E fresh and new for the fan base makes a big difference to the success of the brand.
Why release 5E at all?
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Trickster Spirit
Explorer
Oh, totally. But I'd go see a blockbuster Pathfinder movie even if Paizo abruptly canceled the RPG line and limited it to the card game and MMO (neither of which I care about). I'd see a Pathfinder movie because I'm a fan of D&D-ish fantasy, not because of anything to do with RPG companies' product output.
Sure, and I'd be all for it. The success of a Pathfinder movie only harms the success of a D&D movie if the two come out during competing weekends, even if they are both about dragons, orcs, wizards and grey skinned dominatrix elves from the center of the Earth. If the Pathfinder movie franchise demolishes the D&D movie franchise, it'll be because the movies are just better, not because WotC dropped the ball with 5E book scheduling.
There is always the possibility of "D&D style fantasy" as a genre becoming over-saturated, but look at how many superhero movies have come out in the last 15 years!
Not unless you like PF more! But why so exclusive? 5E is much more my speed than Pathfinder but if I was friends with a GM who wanted to run a Pathfinder game I'd play it happily.
Why does it matter what our preferences in March 2017 are?
If you've been away from Pathfinder for a while and decide to go back and play it, more power to you! When you're looking for unmatchable character customization, godlike power at higher levels, and heaps and heaps of support, Pathfinder would be the first game I'd recommend for you. If you're looking for a lower-powered game with better character balance and fewer fiddly rules and streamlined character creation / progression, I'd suggest 5E.
As long as being a Pathfinder player in 2017 doesn't mean you suddenly and inexplicably decide to boycott a D&D movie or video game, WotC probably doesn't mind what you're playing as long as you have positive feelings towards the words "Dungeons and Dragons". Play what you like, and perhaps in March 2019 that'll be 5E again!
No reason not to, mostly. Here are four reasons off the top of my head, and I'm sure Wizards had plenty more:
- The core books were always going to have sold well, so there was money to be made (something that can't necessarily be said of anything that comes out after the big three)
- Return the game to its roots after a divisive fourth edition, appealing to lapsed players and generating a lot of positive buzz about D&D
- Also take the opportunity to create a more user-friendly version of the game that's a lot easier on new players than the previous two editions, to better build the casual audience which is far, far larger than the hardcore fans
- Keep the game in print so that there's an easy way to create new brand evangelists (any teenager who tells their friends or family "Hey, let's check out that D&D movie!") and avoiding any connotations of "not even the nerds play that thing anymore!"
BryonD
Hero
But you said it was about Brand value and we agreed.
A big part of that brand value is being "the name in RPGs".
I think you are oversimplifying to a fault. If the game fades from the forefront it becomes less likely that there will ever be a "D&D Movie". They can (will and do) make D&Dish movies all the time without the D&D brand associated. If they think adding D&D to the title of *Fantasy Script Number 87* will increase the profits of a movie by $2,000,000, then maybe they will pay WotC $1,000,000 to make that happen.
You referenced "brand evangelists". If two years from now there are very few D&D brand evangelists, then their plan for enhancing the D&D movie and brand value isn't working.
It isn't about anything remotely to do with "boycotts". There is a huge gap between "boycotts" and does this brand actively make the movie sell more tickets. I'll go see a D&D movie any time. But if Universal does a brand recognition survey (and they do) and D&D doesn't score well in 2016, then there will not be a D&D movie in 2017. There are brand evangelists for D&D right now. And a lot of alternatives will continuously be making an effort to gain the attention of those people. If WotC doesn't do more to keep attention, they will find their evangelists slowly but steadily converting to other faiths. Then adding the D&D brand becomes worth $500,000 or $250,000, or whatever. There is a point where adding the cost of buying the brand isn't worth the risk, so they don't do it. And even if they do, WotC makes that much less money for it.
Trickster Spirit
Explorer
I'm not saying it won't be the case in the future, but at present there are no Pathfinder players who have never heard of D&D. There might be plenty of players who have only ever played Pathfinder and not D&D (I myself was one of them until 5E came out), but even the casual players know about D&D and the relationship between it and the game they are playing. So whether Pathfinder or D&D is on top of the RPG charts in 2016 or 2017 is immaterial to whether a movie would be successful or not.
You asked me for reasons why they bothered with coming out with 5E at all, and I listed some, but I still think they could shut down the RPG division tomorrow and still make a successful D&D movie with mainstream appeal, just because it'll be a high-budget CGI spectacular with a dragon fight (and also wizards blasting down mooks with laser beams AND fighters mowing down armies of hobgoblins AND mindflayers eating the brain of the likable sidekick an hour into the movie AND hungry vampires being turned by the cleric of Pelor who had just regained his faith after having lost long ago after all the terrible things he's seen AND a sexy succubus trying to find redemption for her damned nature by chastely exploring the multiverse as a force for good AND a monk who knows kung fu AND flumphs no wait ESPECIALLY flumphs, make the whole damn movie about the flumphs).
Pick any one of those threads and you could make a blockbuster about it, and there are more than five editions worth of lapsed D&D players that will fill seats and invite their friends and family along for the ride. Brand evangelists aren't just folks who will try and convert you into playing the current edition of the game - they're everyone who has positive associations with the name "Dungeons and Dragons" and can be expected to recommend the movie to their friends.
By that definition, most Pathfinder players are D&D brand evangelists, inasmuch as they like D&D style fantasy and will take their kids / parents / friends / gaming groups to the theater with them. Same goes for 4E players, and players of every other D&D edition going back all the way to OD&D.
What's your definition of "decent"?
As I understand it, two big studios are currently litigating the rights to make a D&D movie.
I think the D&D brand has far more market power than the Pathfinder brand.
