D&D 5E Assassinate

[Coredump]

Do none of you people use advantage/disadvantage for initiative rolls? If you have an assassin moving into careful position.... that could easily provide advantage. If the target is feeling safe and secure.... that could provide disadvantage. Sometimes you might even get both....

An Assassin (assume Dex 18-20) with advantage will normally win any initiative 'contest' with a target....

 

[redrick]

Do none of you people use advantage/disadvantage for initiative rolls? If you have an assassin moving into careful position.... that could easily provide advantage. If the target is feeling safe and secure.... that could provide disadvantage. Sometimes you might even get both....

An Assassin (assume Dex 18-20) with advantage will normally win any initiative 'contest' with a target....

I never have, no, though I guess it could come up!

In this case, initiative doesn't enter into it. If the Assassin is moving into careful position and the target is unaware, this is a matter of a Stealth roll, not an initiative roll. If the Assassin attacks an unaware target, the target doesn't roll initiative because the target would have no reason to act until after the attack has been resolved.

Initiative dictates the resolution of simultaneous actions. In the case of an Assassin attacking an unaware target, there is no simultaneous action, unless the Assassin is firing a projectile that takes several seconds to reach the target and makes noise as it approaches.

 

[Ristamar]

BUt you need to realize that is not how the rules describe combat.

The rules do not allow for those 'not quite in combat yet' attacks.

Unfortunately, there's nothing that defines when combat begins or ends. Based on the limited parameters regarding initiative, by the strictest sense, you're probably correct. However, I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb when I say that I doubt most DM's always follow a strict interpretation to determine when to call for initiative.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of Mearls, Crawford, or Perkins on the matter.

 

[Hriston]

Off topic, but what are the mechanics granting disadvantage here? I understand disadvantage against an unseen opponent, but wouldn't holding an attack against an unseen opponent until after they give away their location mean the attacker is no longer unseen, negating the disadvantage?

The attacker in this example is invisible and hidden. By attacking he gives away his position, but he is still unseen, so advantage/disadvantage still applies.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Obviously, your game, your rules. If you and your players are fine, all's well.

That being said, what you are describing seems like, well, Sneak Attack. The Surprise mechanic is all about whether or not you can act in the first round of combat, which doesn't really work if you are evaluating Surprise with regards to every combination of combatants. The Assassinate ability is just a unique special ability that keys off of the general ability of Surprise.

We have an arcane trickster 12 and a bard 7 Rogue assasine 5 in our party that I DM, and we disagree... assassinate works when you are surprised, you are surprised when ever you don't see an attack coming... "SUPRISE"

It seems to be that you are basically ruling, "In the first round of combat, if you Sneak Attack an enemy, the attack is automatically a critical hit."

nope, not at all... two weeks ago when at rocks end they fought a salamander lord with hell fire the assasine rolled high on initative (twenty something) and went first, but there was no surprise, the bad guy monologed and they threw insults then the dice came out...

Which, again, if it doesn't bother you or your players, is an all-well-and-good way to buff the Assassin a little bit.

except it isn't a buff at all, we only let him assassinate if he can surprise a target, but we belive that the meaning of surprise is different then 'only in the first round of combat'

For myself, I am not interested in an interpretation of surprise that is that liberal and that open to interpretation.

um talk to madam Webster then...

sur·prise


/sə(r)ˈprīz/


noun

noun: surprise; plural noun: surprises



1.


an unexpected or astonishing event, fact, or thing.
"the announcement was a complete surprise"


synonyms: shock, bolt from the blue, bombshell, revelation, rude awakening, eye-opener, wake-up call; informalshocker
"the test came as a big surprise"




•a feeling of mild astonishment or shock caused by something unexpected.
"much to her surprise, she'd missed him"


synonyms: astonishment, amazement, wonder, incredulity, bewilderment, stupefaction, disbelief
"Kate looked at me in surprise"




•denoting something made, done, or happening unexpectedly.
modifier noun: surprise

"a surprise attack"





2.



Bell-ringing
denoting a class of complex methods of change-ringing.
"surprise major"



verb

verb: surprise; 3rd person present: surprises; past tense: surprised; past participle: surprised; gerund or present participle: surprising



1.


(of something unexpected) cause (someone) to feel mild astonishment or shock.
"I was surprised at his statement"


synonyms: astonish, amaze, startle, astound, stun, stagger, shock; More
leave open-mouthed, take someone's breath away, dumbfound, stupefy, daze, take aback, shake up;

informalbowl over, floor, flabbergast


"I was so surprised that I dropped it"


•astonished, amazed, astounded, startled, stunned, staggered, nonplussed, shocked, taken aback, stupefied, dumbfounded, dumbstruck, speechless, thunderstruck, confounded, shaken up;
informalbowled over, flabbergasted, floored, flummoxed


"Lenore's unexpected return surprised everyone"


•unexpected, unforeseen, unpredictable;
astonishing, amazing, startling, astounding, staggering, incredible, extraordinary, breathtaking, remarkable;

informalmind-blowing


"the results of the study were surprising"




•capture, attack, or discover suddenly and unexpectedly; catch unawares.
"he surprised a gang stealing scrap metal"


synonyms: take by surprise, catch unawares, catch off guard, catch red-handed, catch in the act
"she surprised a burglar"





Origin



late Middle English (in the sense ‘unexpected seizure of a place, or attack on troops’): from Old French, feminine past participle of surprendre, from medieval Latin superprehendere ‘seize.’



Translate surprise toChoose languageAfrikaansAlbanianArabicArmenianAzerbaijaniBasqueBelarusianBengaliBosnianBulgarianBurmeseCatalanCebuanoChinese (Simplified)Chinese (Traditional)CroatianCzechDanishDutchEsperantoEstonianFilipinoFinnishFrenchGalicianGeorgianGermanGreekGujaratiHaitianHausaHebrewHindiHmongHungarianIcelandicIgboIndonesianIrishItalianJapaneseJavaneseKannadaKazakhKhmerKoreanLaoLatinLatvianLithuanianMacedonianMalagasyMalayMalayalamMalteseMaoriMarathiMongolianNepaliNorwegianNyanjaPersianPolishPortuguesePunjabiRomanianRussianSerbianSinhalaSlovakSlovenianSomaliSpanishSundaneseSwahiliSwedishTajikTamilTeluguThaiTurkishUkrainianUrduUzbekVietnameseWelshYiddishYorubaZulu





Use over time for: surprise







Translations, word origin, and more definitions

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Do none of you people use advantage/disadvantage for initiative rolls? If you have an assassin moving into careful position.... that could easily provide advantage. If the target is feeling safe and secure.... that could provide disadvantage. Sometimes you might even get both....

An Assassin (assume Dex 18-20) with advantage will normally win any initiative 'contest' with a target....

I do, when the PCs make a plan that my 6 year old neice wouldn't roll her eyes at, or in general have an advantage I will sometimes give it out, I don't really for surprise that much though...

 

[Hriston]

Ok, that makes sense. I was trying to puzzle out how the disadvantage carried over after the Bard became visible and thinking I had missed some subtle point in the rules.

I see [MENTION=6777696]redrick[/MENTION] beat me to this, but yeah, Greater Invisibility is a 4th level Bard spell. You're quite right that if he were using the 2nd level spell he would become visible when he attacks. I hadn't gotten down to that level of detail when I posted.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I see [MENTION=6777696]redrick[/MENTION] beat me to this, but yeah, Greater Invisibility is a 4th level Bard spell. You're quite right that if he were using the 2nd level spell he would become visible when he attacks. I hadn't gotten down to that level of detail when I posted.

yea, the bard uses invisibility (2nd level) not improved...I have to ask him what spells he knows, the only ones I ever remember him casting in the last 7 levels are Hideous laughter (1st) Cure Wounds (1st, but has used all the slots) and Invisability (2nd)... infact I can also only name 2 cantrips... minor illusion, and message.... he really doesn't use his spells that much

 

[aramis erak]

We should all step back and accept, that RAW may be interpreted differently at the table.

A large number of the "interpretations" require either major misreading or lack of grasp of standard written American English. Some don't, but those tend to me more minor.

Not getting a turn at all is one of those where it's a pretty major difference. It doesn't appear to be a misread of the text, per se. It's apparently a failure to grasp the action economy...

On your turn, you get:

• A move (typically 30')
• An action
• Maybe a single bonus action
• a few seconds of talking
• An interaction with object.
• You recover the ability to react

A surprised character only gets:

• Maybe a single bonus action
• a few seconds of talking
• An interaction with object.
• You recover the ability to react

That's still a large and impressive ability of function...
Note that I can see using a Ki point strike or Action Surge on the surprise turn... they are a bonus action, not an action. That's the grey area RAW.

The talking, the readying of a weapon, the ability to react - those are RAW and apparently RAI.

 

[Celtavian]

Do none of you people use advantage/disadvantage for initiative rolls? If you have an assassin moving into careful position.... that could easily provide advantage. If the target is feeling safe and secure.... that could provide disadvantage. Sometimes you might even get both....

An Assassin (assume Dex 18-20) with advantage will normally win any initiative 'contest' with a target....

If invisibility does not give advantage on initiative rolls, I see no reason to grant it for stealthing. If I start handing out advantage on initiative rolls for "exceptional" stealth, what does that do for enhance ability dexterity spell. It devalues what the spell does. It's not something I want to start doing. Sets a precedent I don't want to deal with.

Surprise should have worked like I outlined to show clearly someone doesn't know the attacker is there. Mearls has decided otherwise. That I might change with a house rule. Though I don't feel like having too many house rules in this edition. Creates additional rules to remember not in everyone's book and makes the game harder to run for others. I'm not getting stuck running the game all the time this edition.