D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

[Tony Vargas]

I proposed a warlord system powered by a consumable resource (warlord dice) that refreshed on a long rest.

[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] and you didn't like that.

I proposed a system where they got less warlord dice, but they refreshed on a short rest.

The two of you didn't like that either. mellored in particular wanted an "AT-WILL" system.

I said fine; an at-will system will be limited to just cantrip-level power.

You retort: Nu-uh, they have short-and-long rest powers too.

Except you JUST SAID NO to short-and-long rest powers!!!

I think I see the problem. It sounded like you were trying to give the Warlord just one sort of resource. All daily, or all short-rest-recharge, or all at-will. (Which did seem like a very strange series of proposals.)

It needs a mix at-will & limited resource, just like most classes do.

And, it's really an opportunity to think outside the box and have resource models other than rest-recharging, too, precisely because 5e doesn't have any convenient class structure to just fill in the blanks. It's wide open.

The goalpost isn't moving, it's just not in any of the places you were shooting at.

This is why this will never work. There is no design that will warlord fans will accept besides "grant any bonus I want whenever I want it."

That's a leap. You didn't think you were going to design a complete, complex class in a couple of forum posts, did you?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

An At-Willlord would have to be balanced like that. He isn't granting the Dash action, he's adding +10 ft to movement. He's not using battle-maneuvers, he's granting advantage to Athletics checks. He isn't healing allies, he's reducing the damage they take by a few points each round. He's not giving allies extra attacks, he's giving them d6 bonus to damage. In essence, he isn't creating an effect more powerful than a cantrip or part of a feat. And he still needs some limit on how many effects he can be producing at once.

I think there's a happy medium. The base class can include 'always active' or at least situationally useful non-action-using features. Perhaps the pattern could be that there's a basic Inspirational, Tactical, and Bravura unlimited function in the core class, and that may get built on somewhat at higher levels, then there's a 'presence die' mechanism for each flavor that builds on this base.

 

[mellored]

A cantrip, like Guidance, that takes concentration and needs to be re-cast after the subject has availed himself of the benefit is clearly more limited than an aura, and it already does a very small +1d4 bonus.

But, you could have an inspiration 'aura' that's just up most of the time giving a similar bonus, but the refresh comes based on the ally taking a short rest. So, start of combat "I'm inspiring!" (yeah, yeah, we hate you almost as much as the Bard's singing, but we'll take the bonus), everyone gets a die, and can spend it when they like. Those that do can't benefit from being 'inspired' again until they've had a short rest. That'd be more like inspiring heroic effort in the ally.

You just went from less limited than Guidance (because no action or concentration) to more limited (the same ally can't benefit from it twice between rests), even though you can use each 'at will.'

that could work.

though the passive aura could also take concentration. it makes sense thematicly, you can't give a warning shoutd to dodge a fireball f you just took a mace to the head.

 

[Tony Vargas]

that could work.

though the passive aura could also take concentration. it makes sense thematicly, you can't give a warning shoutd to dodge a fireball f you just took a mace to the head.

Unless a mace to the head drops you, you can do anything you could before - in D&D, anyway. :shrug: Seriously, though, yeah, I have no problem with applying a mechanic like concentration outside the arena of spellcasting. As with that at-will/concentration guidance cantrip, though, it's a modest limitation compared to a per-ally/per-rest refresh.

 

[mellored]

Question though: Is a class who just gets cantrips (and only cantrips) sufficient? I mean, take a moment and mentally replace the bard's spells a dozen cantrips. Does it work?

As long as its limited: dash, disengage, hide, use an object. No spellcasting, no attacks.

At what level? Firebolt improves with level, adding an extra dice instead of adding extra attacks. Additionally, there are other classes that get damage via riders (sneak attack, divine strike) rather than extra attacks, making their extra single attack much more powerful than a fighters.

just cantrip level effects are not enough for a wizard, and won't be enough for a battlebard. you will need something more. like an aura. and possibly a short rest insperation hit dice.

the main thing is that i want per-turn decisions on which effects (cantrip) to apply. with a variety of effects/bonuses to choose from. vicious mockery (penalize the enemy), thronwhip (move the enemy), bladeward (reduce damage for an ally), truestrike (bonus for ally), trip, ect... rather then simply more damage that the fighter/barbarian/rogue currently have.

having aura's changeable with a bonus action would also work similar. i like the idea. see a dragon? everyone gets bonus to dex saves. fighting a horde of kobolds? DR1 against bludgoning for the group. against a kraken? bonus to athletics checks. ect.. they don't need to be big (+1/2 proficency?), and should be specific (1 save, not all saves, already steping on the paladins toes, no need to take his whole foot). and they can take concentration to prevent stacking and let enemies disrupt you.

and therewill still be room for a few short rest abilites, like inspiring word.

and 1 attack is equal to a level 5-10 firebolt. and 1/2 the damage any martial level 5 person would do.
at level 11, adding +int to damage would keep it up.
though it falls behind again at 17, but that's probably ok.

edit: and of course, what i want isn't neccicaraly what others want.

 

[Tony Vargas]

just cantrip level effects are not enough for a wizard, and won't be enough for a battlebard. you will need something more. like an aura. and possibly a short rest insperation hit dice.

the main thing is that i want per-turn decisions on which effects (cantrip) to apply. with a variety of effects/bonuses to choose from. vicious mockery (penalize the enemy), thronwhip (move the enemy), bladeward (reduce damage for an ally), truestrike (bonus for ally), trip, ect... rather then simply more damage that the fighter/barbarian/rogue currently have.

having aura's changeable with a bonus action would also work similar.

and therewill still be room for a few short rest abilites, like inspiring word.

/Lots/ of room. A few at-wills, a neat class feature comparable to a freebie, limited cantrip... just getting started, really, unless you visualize a lot of tightly defined personal combat ability (styles, extra attacks and the like).

I don't want to even remotely try to build a class like this, but I can't help but have the odd idea, bad as they might be... [sblock]Some different resource models

Commanding Presence: an 'at will' aura like Mellored came up with, becomes available with archetype which determines what it adds to. At-will for the warlord, but how often an ally can use it is limited.

Maneuvers: At-will moves that generally work. Some might be similar to Battlemaster maneuvers, but are actions rather than attack riders - between that and the Warlord not getting extra attacks, they lack the Nova potential that makes them so powerful for the Battlemaster. Instead of a CS die adding extra damage & determining a random bonus, they do no extra damage (some may be instead of an attack rather than including an attack or do less damage than normal attacks) and provide a bonus based on a secondary stat (INT or CHA).

Inspiration: You exhort an ally to make an exceptional effort. This gives them some benefit - an extra action, short-term buff, restored or temp hps, etc - but it can't easily be repeated. PCs are 'heroes' so the first hit of Inspiration is free, because they just try harder than ordinary folk. After that it costs HD (restoring hps would reasonably always costs HD) or requires an increasingly difficult CON save or both or otherwise becomes unavailable until the next rest. If the CON save is fixed, that'd effectively let it scale with level (assuming proficiency in that save, which is assuming a lot), or it could scale with the level, but the lower of the Warlord's or ally's level.
Some builds might also have such 'extra effort' maneuvers they use personally, or they could just generally be self-useable. Depends on how comfortable the player is having his Warlord 'believe his own propaganda.'

Tactics: These are more complicated, harder to pull off or 'surprise' maneuvers. You & your allies must be drilled on your respective parts of them (a limit on how many you can have available to attempt, and something you can change during downtime). They might work the first time you try them, but become harder as the enemy gets wise to them. The second time you use one of these in the same encounter, or against the same enemy (or, the DM may even rule, against an enemy whose heard a good enough description of it), the affected enemies get INT saves to foil it or avoid/reduce the effects. (A limit on how often you can use them).
(If the warlord were part of some big supplement, I could see Tactics being one-time-use (ever) tricks, that the Warlord learns/devises, uses and discards as his career progresses... but there'd need to be hundreds of 'em and/or guidelines for creating new ones.)
This is also where a Warlord could choose some tactics that give him some extra personal combat ability - for Bravura types, for instance.
[/sblock]

 

[jayoungr]

An Inspiring Word power would then allow a character to spend a die, with say +CHA bonus. The only flaw with it is how do you get it to scale.

Wait, then spending a hit die in combat is better than spending one out of combat. Why would anyone ever wait for a short rest in that case, when they can get the Warlord's +CHA if they do it in a combat?

(I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, but just can't resist following along at a distance.)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I like the idea of granting use of hit dice as an inspirational healing mechanic, 4e's HS was a darn good mechanic, and it can work here too, just use it only for this type of 'heal'. An Inspiring Word power would then allow a character to spend a die, with say +CHA bonus. The only flaw with it is how do you get it to scale.

Scaling would just be 'spend one or more HD.' I suppose you could do CHAmod+level, if you wanted the Warlord's contribution to scale. Spending multiple HD would be less 'efficient' but if you're getting murdered... Or CHA mod per die. You could get fancy and have a limit based on relative level, like 'one or more HD,' but no more than the Warlord has levels, so a 1st level Warlord can't do much to help a 14th level fighter.

Wait, then spending a hit die in combat is better than spending one out of combat. Why would anyone ever wait for a short rest in that case, when they can get the Warlord's +CHA if they do it in a combat?

Isn't there already some fairly substantial bonus available when you spend your HD after a rest?

One variation that came up in the playtest was to maximize HD spent during a rest, but roll it if it was spent in combat. That's when something like a more universal Second Wind was being discussed.

(I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, but just can't resist following along at a distance.)

Better shore up that WIS save. Welcome aboard the merry-go-round.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My biggest issue with magic right here. It's like the most reliable science ever. There's no danger in researching a spell you don't know as long as it's in the PHB. All wizard castings have no chance of misfiring or anything unpredictable as long as you follow the recipe of gestures and components. With the exception of Wish, nothing is more structured in D&D worlds than the casting of spells. It's science, really.

Because magic is so codified in the rules, I couldn't honestly say they "break the laws of the universe." The laws just include things like "Holding a small leather loop while making this gesture and saying these words is how one floats off the ground."

From a GENRE perspective there's no doubt that I agree with your observation. From an RPG design perspective though the alternatives are unpalatable. Spells could be unreliable or have arbitrary effects, but that's fairly disempowering to players. It CAN be interesting in a limited fashion, but if magic is truly dangerous then playing a wizard (or maybe even being around one) is right out, a 1% "something horrible chance" means sure death sometime in 20 levels. More limited costs tend to be either RP devices, which never played well in D&D's conventions, or something that amounts to 'spell points' in some fashion (IE you pay some sort of cost in money, life, XP, stats, whatever).

Hazardous research would be more interesting perhaps, but what would the hazard be? Again if its some 'price' then mostly its going to be RP and if its mechanical then it has to be permanent and that pretty well discourages research!

I think these aren't show-stopping issues by any means, but the genre conventions of D&D have evolved such that they don't match it all that well. Anyway, I can't imagine D&D adopting something like stat losses for research, or etc. At least not as a core mechanic. Now it would be perfectly apropos in a game like LotFP....

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They don't all apply well to 5e, though. A 5e fighter, for instance, is a 'Striker' in that he's high DPR, but he's not highly mobile, doesn't have ways of discouraging counter-attacks, and isn't gifted with any extra effectiveness with out-of-combat skills, all things Strikers tended to have (the Rogue fits the Striker model more closely, for instance). A Cleric is a 'leader' in the sense of healing/buffing, but his spell-casting versatility also makes him capable of doing a lot of damage or exerting control. Wizards are 'control' but can also do lots of damage and/or buff. Really 'caster' is sort of a role in 5e (as it was in classic D&D), the high-versatility, problem-solving role.

Eh, but 4e didn't define a 'Striker' that way, it was defined purely as being a class which emphasized killin' stuff. The Sorcerer for instance is in no way 'high mobility' in 4e, but its a striker. I don't recall it having any 'discourage counterattacks' mechanism either, its simply very blasty, does respectable AoE damage, and has a bit of control on the side. Same with 4e leaders, the cleric is either a bit of a 'blaster' or a decent melee combatant depending on build, the warlord is definitely minoring in beat-down by default, and the Shaman is a weird sort of defender on the side. They all do heals and some buff/debuff, but...

4e wizards often wander into the 'swiss army knife' role as well, its a predilection that is fostered by cheap magic. The 4e wizard definitely started out pretty focused on control. 2 things happened. One was just bloat, when you have 1200 powers then you will be a multi-tool. The other was their control was way good, and got seriously nerfed down, so the class lost some focus.

D&D may have tried to achieve class balance in the past (Gygax certain said he was trying to often enough in the 1e DMG), but casters came out so far ahead so often in so many editions...

OD&D really is PRETTY balanced. The wizard is AC9, the fighter is AC2, gets 1 attack/level against a lot of common (albeit weak) foes, can use the mighty 2-handed sword (double damage), gets extra attacks (AND double damage), and has d8 hit dice, a better attack table, many of the best items, and followers. The game was really only designed to go to level 10. Yes, wizards got SOME good spells, but the spell list was exceedingly limited, they had a lot of casting restrictions, needed components for many spells, got few spells, etc. At level 10 you were pretty sweet, but not really ahead of the fighter. The original cleric was really basically a wimpier fighter with some more limited magic, maybe the best of the 3 classes overall, but on the whole was pretty balanced.

Not that it lasted for that long, Greyhawk started breaking things a bit, particularly by adding rules for higher level spells and higher level play.

... the case for 'just go play something else' is really much stronger against someone who wants a game where heroic, arcane, pious &c characters all contribute equally (albeit in very different ways), than anyone who wants a game with primary casters ruling from Tier 1.

Well, this is why we got 4e...

Conversely, if D&D is to be a more inclusive game, it needs balance among the myriad preferences of all it's past & current (and potential) fans: everybody gets to play the character they want, but without overshadowing or obviating anyone else's choice.

Eventually it needs to be able to explore new ground as well. Otherwise it will simply lack appeal to changing sensibilities.