Heroic Tier 5th man builds?

[wasteomana]

That said, if you don't want to be squishy, it's hard to argue with a hybrid Revenant Vampire/x.

It isn't hard to argue with it. Most of the argument is showing you another class that functions very well and isn't wasting half of their class on being |Vampire.

* Revenant lets you stay conscious when you hit 0 and you can never really die except throug Massive Damage.

If you invest heavily in +DST and aren't investing in other things. The Unkillable Revenant is a cool concept, but not a good idea at 90% of tables.

The Executioner e-Assassin hits harder.

"Better than O-Assassin" isn't much to write home about. Granted we are in heroic so Eclasses will, by and large, look nicer here than in other places but still..

Avenger is also a lack-lustre Striker that favors accuracy over damage, but you could make a plausible Critfisher out of him.

Favors accuracy over damage should be literally all the classes in the game. Including strikers. The reason they aren't great is due to the lack of good power selection and not a lot of multi-attacks.

That being said, looking at your list I would make a Ranger|Cleric. How you choose to build it and play it will depend on theme and MC.

Samurai + Init Feat + MC Avenger = First turn of tons of D20 rolls and crits.
MC Fighter = Extra Interrupt for more defender catch-22ness
MC Spiked Chain = Spiked Chain.

 

[twsstastic]

WOW. Totally didn't even think of how little damage we would do. You've pushed me to something I've definitely been wanting to try. Here's first draft! Thoughts? Also, GM knows how much better Scales of War bg's are so we're just using general ones. I picked for fluff there. NOT married to the race.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Gekk, level 2
Goliath, Ranger/Cleric
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Hybrid Cleric Option: Battle Cleric's Lore
Inherent Bonuses
Pivotal Event - Divine Decree (+2 to Nature)
Theme: Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 12, DEX 14, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 12, DEX 14, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 11


AC: 21 Fort: 16 Ref: 15 Will: 17
HP: 29 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +12, Insight +9, Nature +13, Perception +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +0, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance +3, Heal +4, History +0, Intimidate +1, Religion +0, Stealth +3, Streetwise +1, Thievery +3

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Goliath Racial Power: Stone's Endurance
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Cleric Attack 1: Righteous Brand
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Ranger Attack 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger Attack 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride

FEATS
Level 1: Spiked Chain Training
Level 2: Light Blade Expertise
Level 2: Battlewise

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit
Subtle Spiked chain +1 x1
Dwarven Scale Armor +1 x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Restful Bedroll
====== End ======

 

[MwaO]

I think the overall benefits from a spiked chain compared to 2 short swords is relatively minimal in Heroic. Especially given Battle Awareness or Monastic Disciple with a Paladin in the party.

 

[wasteomana]

I think the overall benefits from a spiked chain compared to 2 short swords is relatively minimal in Heroic. Especially given Battle Awareness or Monastic Disciple with a Paladin in the party.

Or even MC Avenger as your Wis is high.

The big draw of spiked chain is having a reached flail double weapon. If you aren't using any parts of those then I agree taking them is not a good plan.

I don't mind Goliath as the race, but I'd honestly take Dwarf over it, especially in heroic. DWT is a pretty damned excellent feat. Lastly in keeping with the theme of the 'damage dealer, but defender enabler' when I do this build I go with Mighty Hew over Offhand Strike. Offhand Strike is amazing, multi-attacking is king, but the goal is to have enough interrupts with easy triggers that you are doing one every round.

Ideally by level 3 the choices in those interrupts are as follows:
Guardian
Mighty Hew
Battle Awareness
Disruptive Strike

Most people don't take all 4 (as 4 interrupts is overkill in any optimized group), but I would take all 4 if my party was less optimized just for the fun factor.

 

[twsstastic]

I think the overall benefits from a spiked chain compared to 2 short swords is relatively minimal in Heroic. Especially given Battle Awareness or Monastic Disciple with a Paladin in the party.

Sounds like the emphasis should for sure be on the defender friendly catch-2 stuff then. OK I can get my head around that. Is the d6 short sword a beefy enough damage die for all the MBA-esque interrupts or is there a way to beef that up? Also just a little concerned about getting hold of two magic weapons at once. One spiked chain was easy. And what makes Monk competitive? Never thought about them.

Or even MC Avenger as your Wis is high.

The big draw of spiked chain is having a reached flail double weapon. If you aren't using any parts of those then I agree taking them is not a good plan.

I don't mind Goliath as the race, but I'd honestly take Dwarf over it, especially in heroic. DWT is a pretty damned excellent feat. Lastly in keeping with the theme of the 'damage dealer, but defender enabler' when I do this build I go with Mighty Hew over Offhand Strike. Offhand Strike is amazing, multi-attacking is king, but the goal is to have enough interrupts with easy triggers that you are doing one every round.

Ideally by level 3 the choices in those interrupts are as follows:
Guardian
Mighty Hew
Battle Awareness
Disruptive Strike

Most people don't take all 4 (as 4 interrupts is overkill in any optimized group), but I would take all 4 if my party was less optimized just for the fun factor.

Doesn't dwarf lose me a proficiency point without taking a hybrid talent feat to go craghammer (OMG DAMAGE BTW)? Goliath was only picked for the stat line-up...I feel like Shifter or something is more damage friendly from a front loaded racial standpoint. Nice argument against multiattacks, forgot it was trying to do more than damage in this hybrid for a second. Is avenger brought up to supplement the build that doesn't have battle awareness but now has an oath for its standard and interrupt?

Hope I'm not asking too many questions here! This is just too fun.

 

[MwaO]

Monk is competitive for a few reasons. It gives access to Ki Foci - even if you're not using Ki Foci, Rain of Hammers is an excellent free daily MBA+property.
Quicksilver Motion is an amazing utility 6 for a melee expert that you can get with a feat swap.
Dance of the Stinging Hornet is a very good encounter 13 that involves a move action attack.

Oath of Enmity can be very good, but I think it is more of a Fighter|Cleric or Barbarian|Cleric option(i.e. not a lot of minor action attacks or options, but big multi-attack hitters is better than using Oath with Twin Strike and giving up minor action attacks and/or quarry)

Light Blade Expertise + Cunning Stalker = good damage on an MBA.

 

[twsstastic]

I think the overall benefits from a spiked chain compared to 2 short swords is relatively minimal in Heroic. Especially given Battle Awareness or Monastic Disciple with a Paladin in the party.

Or even MC Avenger as your Wis is high.

The big draw of spiked chain is having a reached flail double weapon. If you aren't using any parts of those then I agree taking them is not a good plan.

I don't mind Goliath as the race, but I'd honestly take Dwarf over it, especially in heroic. DWT is a pretty damned excellent feat. Lastly in keeping with the theme of the 'damage dealer, but defender enabler' when I do this build I go with Mighty Hew over Offhand Strike. Offhand Strike is amazing, multi-attacking is king, but the goal is to have enough interrupts with easy triggers that you are doing one every round.

Ideally by level 3 the choices in those interrupts are as follows:
Guardian
Mighty Hew
Battle Awareness
Disruptive Strike

Most people don't take all 4 (as 4 interrupts is overkill in any optimized group), but I would take all 4 if my party was less optimized just for the fun factor.

Monk is competitive for a few reasons. It gives access to Ki Foci - even if you're not using Ki Foci, Rain of Hammers is an excellent free daily MBA+property.
Quicksilver Motion is an amazing utility 6 for a melee expert that you can get with a feat swap.
Dance of the Stinging Hornet is a very good encounter 13 that involves a move action attack.

Oath of Enmity can be very good, but I think it is more of a Fighter|Cleric or Barbarian|Cleric option(i.e. not a lot of minor action attacks or options, but big multi-attack hitters is better than using Oath with Twin Strike and giving up minor action attacks and/or quarry)

Light Blade Expertise + Cunning Stalker = good damage on an MBA.

Ok, yeah, Rain of Hammers is silly levels of cool. My Shaman already grabbed tome expertise, so the Companion should already be generating constant CA on top of wizard dazes if I wanted to save a feat. Did YOU have any thoughts on race? I wish svirfneblin had more than that cleric feat, they'd be a hilarious melee strength character.

 

[Zathris]

Aside from not picking the bad ones (Shade, Vryloka...) race actually doesn't matter too much in mid-late Heroic games. It can snag you a proficiency+damage feat, or if you're Cha it's pretty relevant (Tiefling or Dragonborn are just so much better), but otherwise you can pretty safely go 17/15/... or just throw that 18 in Str with a race only boosting Str if it's a good race.

I think my choices would be as follows:
Human: Heroic Only an Extra Feat is just great and Heroic Effort makes the loss 2nd stat basically irrelevant even if you were to pick up a Wis based attack. Oh, and bonus skill and defenses.

Mul: Since your U2 gives you a non-standard action 2nd Wind, there's little reason for Dwarf.

Dragonborn: The new Drakonian Kapak variant (Dragon 421) gives you a Minor Action Encounter Attack that unlike Dragonbreath gets you full damage bonuses. Oh, and Flight.

Genasi is the Archetypal race for Ranger|Cleric because of their Paragon/Epic absurdity but the Racial for Storm adds yet another Minor Action for more damage.

Beyond that I'd say they're all pretty equal, +Wis really isn't that necessary beyond +1 Will, so the difference between Goliath/Minotaur/Shifter and any other +Str race is limited.

 

[MwaO]

+1. In general, race is kind of irrelevant in Heroic tier unless you're doing something very, very specific. Such as dumping Dex while starting with a 20 Cha.

The big advantage of Cunning Stalker for that party is the following:
Your Shaman parks his spirit on the square on top of a melee opponent.
Your Paladin marks a different target with Call of Challenge and then doesn't move next to that opponent.
You then move next to that opponent and engage it.

Now, the 1st melee opponent has to provoke to attack. The 2nd one opponent has to either attack you at a mark penalty(and take damage) or eat an MBA from you. Which is one of the reasons I'm a little more fond of Elemental Initiate vs. Guardian when picking up Battle Awareness is coming into play. That way, if the guy ignores you, he takes an MBA. If he pays attention, he takes mark damage and likely an immediate reaction. All wins.

(edit: and Elemental Initiate gives you your ki focus for Rain of Hammers...)

 

[wasteomana]

Entry Deleted for being completely wrong and missing something about firewind blade. Was trying to find a good abusive way to use Firewind + Sarifal on a Svirfneblin Ranger|Cleric and forgot to actually turn all my attacks fire somehow. Back to the drawing board.