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D&D 5E Average damage or rolled damage?

Fact One: the dice clearly indicated that the characters were not aware of the ambush.
Dice can't possibly do that, only description can - dice just indicate a failure to do something, not what that failure inherently means.

Fact Two: my calling for a Spot check and no other trigger was enough to cause a Pavlovian response in my players, whereby they'd immediately start loading up on defensive spells.
There has to be more to it than that, because not all spot checks are for detecting ambush, so your players assuming that they are has to come from something more than just "make a spot check" - potentially that your descriptions don't give them the information you think that you are giving them, so they have no idea whether you are asking for a spot check to detect an ambush or to notice a poorly hidden bit of treasure, and it's happened so much that they assume the worst.

Fact Three: this was not a single instance, but a repeated pattern of play.
That doesn't actually tell me whether it was a repeated pattern of you describing and framing things well and your players cheating by using knowledge their character's couldn't possibly have, or a repeated pattern of you not providing your players with any more information about the situation other than that you've asked for a spot check again and most of the time when you ask for a spot check it is because you are trying to surprise the party with monsters, so the players are just doing what they can to mitigate the outcome they don't want of getting caught off-guard by monsters and being out-matched.

Fact Four: as soon as I made sure player knowledge and character knowledge were the same, the problem disappeared.
Making a symptom vanish doesn't mean you've cured the cause of it, and what little you have actually shared about how your games went indicates the behavior you mention as being a symptom of something, not the actual something itself.

Now, do you want to tell me I'm lying, or would you rather attack my DMing style again?
I'm genuinely sorry you interpreted my statements as an attack on your DMing style. I did not intend them as such, and I acknowledge that I could have been more delicate in my phrasing rather than assuming a thicker skin an inherent trait of a DM.
 

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Yep, calling for random checks at 'safe' times definitely works. It does tend to slow down the game, though.

I think random checks are a bad practice, as Iserith once explained far better than I probably can. And I've been guilty of it myself in the past. I no longer do it though. Asking for a check, when there is nothing to check for, is bad. You should only ask for a check, when there is uncertainty.

Take for example a cannibal that is sneaking up on the players, who are traveling through the jungle. You could have them roll perception checks. But unless they are specifically looking for the cannibal, or the cannibal just rolls really poorly for his stealth check, you can assume that he goes unnoticed without having to roll for anything. If the cannibal rolls poorly for his stealth, inform the players that they hear the snap of a branch. If they want to know where the sound came from, THEN you ask for a check.

Once you start ruling it differently, there is no longer a need to have players roll when there is nothing there. I make sure all my rolls are meaningful. When my players roll a perception check in a dungeon, it might be because of a trap. But it might also be because of something else. Maybe there's an ambush, or some important detail about the wall. Maybe the passage isn't entirely safe, or maybe they recognize a statue in the room. Sometimes such a check reveals harmless clues, or maybe they notice footprints of monsters in the sand.
 
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I'm genuinely sorry you interpreted my statements as an attack on your DMing style. I did not intend them as such, and I acknowledge that I could have been more delicate in my phrasing rather than assuming a thicker skin an inherent trait of a DM.
Fair enough. I, in turn, apologise for being overly defensive.

Dice can't possibly do that, only description can - dice just indicate a failure to do something, not what that failure inherently means.

Okay, I have another example where metagaming most definitely did happen. I'm slightly reluctant to tell this story, since I don't come out of it terribly well... but then, it was half-a-lifetime ago and I'm practically a different person by now. So...

The year was 1996, and the game was Vampire. These were the glorious days when I could play for four hours on a Tuesday evening, every Tuesday evening. Our group was my Ventrue, a Malkavian, and a Caitiff. If you're not familiar with Vampire, the important thing is that the Malkavian had various supernatural senses, including aura-reading, that my character did not.

So, we found ourselves needing to break in to... somewhere. A warehouse, or offices I think. Anyway, we cased the joint, and spotted the security guard. And the Malkavian was dispatched to read the guy's aura.

The player picked up the dice... and she rolled a BOTCH! At which point the GM gave the player appropriately-false information. I forget what it was, exactly, but it was basically that the guard was seriously badass - a Lupine, or a Methuselah, or some such.

At which point I decided that my character "just happened" to think that this one time she'd managed to get it wrong. Because of course the GM wouldn't place that guard there...

Which was as textbook an example of metagaming as you can get. I had "just happened" to come to that conclusion solely because I knew the Malkavian had botched and the result was therefore false.

And yes, I was (quite rightly) called on it. I didn't do it again.
 

I think random checks are a bad practice, as Iserith once explained far better than I probably can. And I've been guilty of it myself in the past. I no longer do it though. Asking for a check, when there is nothing to check for, is bad. You should only ask for a check, when there is uncertainty.

Aye, I've had that conversation a few times. The end result: I disagree, but it comes down to a matter of DMing philosophy, so probably best left at YMMV. :)
 

Okay, I have another example where metagaming most definitely did happen. I'm slightly reluctant to tell this story, since I don't come out of it terribly well... but then, it was half-a-lifetime ago and I'm practically a different person by now. So...

The year was 1996, and the game was Vampire. These were the glorious days when I could play for four hours on a Tuesday evening, every Tuesday evening. Our group was my Ventrue, a Malkavian, and a Caitiff. If you're not familiar with Vampire, the important thing is that the Malkavian had various supernatural senses, including aura-reading, that my character did not.

So, we found ourselves needing to break in to... somewhere. A warehouse, or offices I think. Anyway, we cased the joint, and spotted the security guard. And the Malkavian was dispatched to read the guy's aura.

The player picked up the dice... and she rolled a BOTCH! At which point the GM gave the player appropriately-false information. I forget what it was, exactly, but it was basically that the guard was seriously badass - a Lupine, or a Methuselah, or some such.

At which point I decided that my character "just happened" to think that this one time she'd managed to get it wrong. Because of course the GM wouldn't place that guard there...

Which was as textbook an example of metagaming as you can get. I had "just happened" to come to that conclusion solely because I knew the Malkavian had botched and the result was therefore false.

And yes, I was (quite rightly) called on it. I didn't do it again.
That's not meta-gaming, as established by that had you not seen/known the result of the roll was a botch you could have had your character believe that the Malkavian made a mistake and refused to believe that there was actually some badass garou or methuselah on door duty.

Your behavior in-character requires no knowledge of how the roll turned out, only assumption (even an inaccurate assumption) that it was possible that the Malkavian is wrong.

That you decided to role-play the way you did because of the die roll is, while honest, entirely irrelevant.

In fact, I'd have had my character act the same way in that situation for no reason other than that what the Malkavian was telling me makes no sense to me.
 

Your behavior in-character requires no knowledge of how the roll turned out, only assumption (even an inaccurate assumption) that it was possible that the Malkavian is wrong.

In fact, I'd have had my character act the same way in that situation for no reason other than that what the Malkavian was telling me makes no sense to me.

I could agree with this (and for the record I disagree entirely with your argument as presented in this thread and others) if, and only if, there was an in character reason for this sudden change in behaviour. If a character is established to trust another character's assessment of potential threats, has done so dozens of times over with no second guesses, and has never had reason to doubt the accuracy of their assessments (thinking a dragon is a harmless lizard or some other major mistake that calls the character's capabilities into question), then I am left wondering why the character would decide to change that arbitrarily. When significant doubt can be cast on a character's consistency AND there is an extremely strong reason for that course of action that the player is aware of out of character, then it is perfectly accurate to call that metagaming.

In the same way, if a sorcerer starts every fight with Chomatic Orb (cold) and has done for the past five levels, then I am going to question the use of Chromatic Orb (fire) when facing trolls if no previous knowledge has been established to support this action. Sure a character could know about trolls, but since a character does not exist beyond what has been shared in game and approved in their backstory by the DM, the character is assumed not to know unless established before the situation arises. In cases where this has not occurred then it is fair to ask the DM if you would know and, with approval, roll the appropriate knowledge check.

Personally, I believe that in the troll situation the DM should describe what the characters see rather than naming exactly what they are facing. If the challenge is in the identification of a creature rather than its abilities then there is significantly less chance of metagaming (which does exist).

One of my favourite ways to identify metagamers is to change a crucial detail about what I believe is being metagamed. Since nothing is set in stone until established by the DM, I enjoy changing trolls' vulnerability to lightning instead of fire and giving them resistance to fire. Players who assume that fire will save them without bothering to ask if they would know the vulnerability (that is, players who metagame) often tend to get upset when they blow their biggest resource for little effect. When they start their objection with "but the book says" they are clearly identifying the books as the cause for their actions rather than the character.

Without fail, that player will then start asking about how things work in the game. If they have a decent justification I will frequently just give them the information. For myself and my table it has worked out very well.
 

I could agree with this if, and only if, there was an in character reason for this sudden change in behaviour.
That's thought policing, but here are some reasons for this "sudden change of behavior"

1) You character has always trusted what this other character says about threat assessment, but this time it just seems too much to believe. Like most normal folks without supernatural powers probably trust their friends to tell them the truth, especially about things that matter, right up until they say something that seems completely ridiculous like "I think that guy in the security uniform at the door over there is Bill Nighy."

2) The game has only covered a small sliver of your character's life, and is thus too small of a sample size with which to judge this moment, rather than everything in-game up to this point, as being the "out of place" behavior.

3) Sometimes, people do things they don't normally do.

In the same way, if a sorcerer starts every fight with Chomatic Orb (cold) and has done for the past five levels, then I am going to question the use of Chromatic Orb (fire) when facing trolls if no previous knowledge has been established to support this action.
More thought policing. That I eat a bowl of honey bunches of oats for breakfast every day for three months doesn't make it strange that one morning I decide to have bacon & eggs, and this sorcerer changing their mind about what spell to cast first in battle is the same (from an in-character point of view).

Sure a character could know about trolls, but since a character does not exist beyond what has been shared in game and approved in their backstory by the DM, the character is assumed not to know unless established before the situation arises. In cases where this has not occurred then it is fair to ask the DM if you would know and, with approval, roll the appropriate knowledge check.
Do I also have to ask the DM's permission to have knowledge of my character's family members that have yet to come up in play before the moment some NPC wanders up, calls him nephew, and tries to hug him, or to invoke a tale of my character being taught to make pie by his loving grandmother? Why be inconsistent about when I as a player get to decide what my character does know from the list of things my character could know?

Personally, I believe that in the troll situation the DM should describe what the characters see rather than naming exactly what they are facing. If the challenge is in the identification of a creature rather than its abilities then there is significantly less chance of metagaming (which does exist).
You must have missed out on the conversation in which the troll scenario was brought up, which isn't surprising since it was on another forum entirely - the DM didn't name the troll, just described it, and the player didn't care whether the character knew they fighting a troll or an ogre, they just wanted to use fire because it sounded cool and was readily available in the form of the camp fire the character was sitting near when the monster attacked.

And the DM (Maxperson in the debate) said that it was meta-gaming to use fire instead of the sword that was also nearby, citing that the player (me in the debate) knew it was a troll from the description given.

Which is where that whole test I mentioned earlier of whether a complete newbie player with no knowledge to "abuse" could make the same choice of action in the same scenario, and if yes it can't be meta-gaming because the action doesn't require any specific knowledge.

One of my favourite ways to identify metagamers is to change a crucial detail about what I believe is being metagamed. Since nothing is set in stone until established by the DM, I enjoy changing trolls' vulnerability to lightning instead of fire and giving them resistance to fire. Players who assume that fire will save them without bothering to ask if they would know the vulnerability (that is, players who metagame) often tend to get upset when they blow their biggest resource for little effect.
Springing a "gotcha" on your players does sound like something it is reasonable for them to be upset about, especially when it is something like changing up what you have allowed to become basic assumptions for the reason that your players are assuming the basic assumptions of the setting haven't changed.

When they start their objection with "but the book says" they are clearly identifying the books as the cause for their actions rather than the character.
Yeah, better teach those nasty players that nothing you or the book says can be trusted because you will change previously established details on a whim just to give them grief if they dare get comfortable enough with your established setting to think they know what is going on without your express permission to think that.

Without fail, that player will then start asking about how things work in the game. If they have a decent justification I will frequently just give them the information. For myself and my table it has worked out very well.
Of course a player you have given a proverbial spanking will start trying to figure out what you want them to be doing, getting spanking and having no idea what for tends to make people very curious.

You could entirely skip the "gotcha" process and reach the same end result of having players that know what you expect of them by simply explaining it to them before hand... though I expect if you do like Maxperson and insist that they can't ever have their character guess about something unless the player is also guessing, you are going to end up either with a lot of characters that devote their resources to knowledge, or a group of players that intentionally let their characters fumble through basically everything because they'd rather devote their resources to things other than jumping through the hoops you insist on having anyone that wants to make informed decisions jump through.
 

No, that's a DM trying to thought-police his players and as a result preventing a player that knows what a troll is from playing his character in a way that is entirely okay for a completely new and unknowledgeable player to play theirs
How? Discovering something through trial and error is a lot different than already having that knowledge going in; and what you're saying seems to want to completely remove the "error" factor.

Example: last session an experienced group of players running an experienced group of characters came up against some Umber Hulks. The players mostly knew what they were but we had to determine whether the characters did or not; it turns out that some of the characters had in fact met Hulks before (about 4 adventures ago) but had killed them so fast they learned pretty much nothing about them other than they had no real resistance to spells. These ones lasted a bit longer, and the characters found out what they can do without any lasting harm being done.

You may not like to hear it, but what you are doing is forcing experienced players to meta-game - you are just insisting that they do so in a way that results in their character doing something other than the "good idea".
Inasmuch as I'm forcing experienced players to role-play their rookie characters like rookie characters, then yes; and I'll go on doing so thank you very much.

And most if not all half-decent players are perfectly fine with this.

Lan-"it's either that or I completely rewrite the monster manual every time I start a campaign; and life's too short for that"-efan
 

I stopped this behavior by asking players to roll perception (or similar) checks at random/innocuous times, when there was actually nothing to see or find of particular note. It keeps them on edge :)
Standard operating procedure.

Sometimes the perception check is to in fact notice that there's nothing to notice!*

* - in situations where in different circumstances there might be. Exploring an empty dungeon, for example: I-as-DM know there's nothing there but the characters don't, and so every now and then I'll have them roll to see if they notice anything with any result giving the answer "seems to be all clear".

Jaelommiss said:
Personally, I believe that in the troll situation the DM should describe what the characters see rather than naming exactly what they are facing. If the challenge is in the identification of a creature rather than its abilities then there is significantly less chance of metagaming (which does exist).
At the start of my current campaign I got a surprising amount of mileage out of simply renaming 5 or 6 common monsters - Goblins became Knill, Kobolds became Quitchi, Ogres became Turvitians, Orcs became Grash, etc. It really made the players stop and think about what they were facing, and even when I described the monsters they weren't always quite sure whether the name was the only change, and thus trod cautiously.

Lan-"renaming the monsters also gave the game its own lexicon, an unforeseen but pleasant side effect"-efan
 
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