D&D 5E What is your preferred level of play?

[Sacrosanct]

1-4 feels like your a wimp. You fight rats and small savage children.
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I think it's about context and perspective. They aren't just rats. They're rats the size of dogs. And it's not savage children. It's savage humanoids that can easily kill the average human adult without much worry. Something like the pygmies in that Mummy Returns movie. A level 4 fighter can go toe to toe with a brown bear. How many people do you know that can do that? I wouldn't exactly call that a wimp.

I think you need to shift your descriptions up one category. I.e., level 1-4 you have more power than the average person. Level 5-10 is superhuman, and 11-15 is near godly. If you're comparing against the average person (which is what you said), then that's more fitting. It seems as though you are comparing to other PCs, and not average people though.

 

[mellored]

I think it's about context and perspective. They aren't just rats. They're rats the size of dogs. And it's not savage children. It's savage humanoids that can easily kill the average human adult without much worry. Something like the pygmies in that Mummy Returns movie. A level 4 fighter can go toe to toe with a brown bear. How many people do you know that can do that? I wouldn't exactly call that a wimp.

I guess i should say that 1-4 makes you feel like an average person.

An average person, who has plate mail and a sword, can take on a dog sized rats.

Brown bears would take some training, which is close to specialness.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I guess i should say that 1-4 makes you feel like an average person.

An average person, who has plate mail and a sword, can take on a dog sized rats.

Brown bears would take some training, which is close to specialness.

Level 1-4 PCs don't usually have plate mail. And the average person doesn't have extra HP, a prof bonus, class skills (which include casting spells). There's nothing about a level 1-4 PC in D&D that should make you feel like an average person, unless you're playing in a game world where the average person can do superhuman tasks.

 

[Pickles III]

Level 1-4 is were you can do things that most highly trained real people can do. Level 5-9 is where you can do things only the most exceptional (& fictional people) can do.

Beyond that you transcend realistic limits, unless you are a fighter then that part never happens

 

[Sacrosanct]

Level 1-4 is were you can do things that most highly trained real people can do. Level 5-9 is where you can do things only the most exceptional (& fictional people) can do.

A level 1 caster can cast spells, let alone an infinite amount of times, bending the fabric of reality. An average, even highly trained person can't do that.
A level 2 druid can change into a bear. don't know many high trained real people that can do that
A 3rd level barbarian can take more abuse than a rhino
A 4th level fighter can routinely go toe to toe and win against a brown bear with nothing more than a sword.
etc, etc

Not sure what you think highly trained real life people can do, but I've never seen any actual equivalent examples.

Beyond that you transcend realistic limits, unless you are a fighter then that part never happens

Besides things like regeneration and taking/inflicting more damage than an elephant?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

A level 1 caster can cast spells, let alone an infinite amount of times, bending the fabric of reality. An average, even highly trained person can't do that.
A level 2 druid can change into a bear. don't know many high trained real people that can do that
A 3rd level barbarian can take more abuse than a rhino
A 4th level fighter can routinely go toe to toe and win against a brown bear with nothing more than a sword.
etc, etc

Not sure what you think highly trained real life people can do, but I've never seen any actual equivalent examples.

Of course, none of the magical stuff will have any equivalent in the real world, because magic isn't real. Bit of a spurious example there. Does 5e have stats for rhinos? I'm curious as to whether that claim--"can take more abuse than a rhino"--is in fact objectively true in 5e, and not merely an estimate or hyperbole. I'm not exactly sold on the Fighter 4 vs. Brown Bear thing--34 HP is pretty beefy (a +2 Con Fighter is only going to have 12+8*3 = 36 hp), and the bear can make two attacks per round while the Fighter can't--and with "nothing more than a sword" (and armor), he wouldn't have the extra AC of a shield, nor the bonus-action attack of an off-hand weapon.

Besides things like regeneration and taking/inflicting more damage than an elephant?

Compared to the completely fantastical effects even an 8th level wizard can pump out? (Greater Invisibility, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Blight, just to name a few...) Yeah, I'd say that's pretty gorram mundane. Especially when anybody can get roughly equivalent "regeneration" just by taking an hour-long nap--and injuries are typically removed by a night's rest.

---

As for the poll itself: I haven't voted, because I honestly don't really know. I've had literally no opportunity to play beyond, very roughly, 8th level in any game except Dungeon World, which is inherently a fairly low-power game as it is (certain max-level spells aside--I'm looking at you, Repair). I'm sort of torn between two desires. On the one hand, I really like the idea of a "sweet spot" that's intentionally been expanded to cover most, if not all, of the game's levels. The earliest levels are for learning the ropes, or for feeling out the character you're playing, but after that, it's awesome adventure the whole way.

On the other hand, I like the idea that a story expands in scope and impact, too. 4e handles that with the intentional ratcheting-up of the kinds of enemies you face as you proceed through the tiers (or half-tiers). In my Dungeon World game, we've more or less achieved the same thing (going from facing mercs and brigands and being scared by ghouls to defeating wizard armies and god-like beings and negotiating with Death himself), but I suspect that's more because I have a great DM than because Dungeon World naturally supports that sort of thing.

So I guess, but can't say for sure, that I like all of them, as long as I always feel like I can experience a similar "play-feel" as the levels go by while still feeling that the scope and impact of my actions has grown.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Of course, none of the magical stuff will have any equivalent in the real world, because magic isn't real. Bit of a spurious example there. Does 5e have stats for rhinos? I'm curious as to whether that claim--"can take more abuse than a rhino"--is in fact objectively true in 5e, and not merely an estimate or hyperbole. I'm not exactly sold on the Fighter 4 vs. Brown Bear thing--34 HP is pretty beefy (a +2 Con Fighter is only going to have 12+8*3 = 36 hp), and the bear can make two attacks per round while the Fighter can't--and with "nothing more than a sword" (and armor), he wouldn't have the extra AC of a shield, nor the bonus-action attack of an off-hand weapon.

A rhino has 45 HP. With damage resistance of a barbarian, he or she can take more abuse than a rhino. Even though a bear has 2 attacks, they won't hit a fighter nearly as often, and are super easy to hit themselves, and have 34 HP. A 4th level fighter is going to have similar HP, much harder to hit, and can action surge (using two combat maneuvers in the first round).

Compared to the completely fantastical effects even an 8th level wizard can pump out? (Greater Invisibility, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Blight, just to name a few...) Yeah, I'd say that's pretty gorram mundane. Especially when anybody can get roughly equivalent "regeneration" just by taking an hour-long nap--and injuries are typically removed by a night's rest.

Shifting goalposts. That wasn't what he said. He said powers that "transcend realistic limits". Not comparing it against other classes. And fact is, high level fighters have lots of attributes that transcend realistic limits.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Of course, none of the magical stuff will have any equivalent in the real world, because magic isn't real. Bit of a spurious example there.

Well, it's showing that the characterization of D&D characters of any level 'doing what most highly trained people can do' is spurious.

Does 5e have stats for rhinos? I'm curious as to whether that claim--"can take more abuse than a rhino"--is in fact objectively true in 5e, and not merely an estimate or hyperbole.

Horse, then. Hps get silly pretty fast, that way.

I'm not exactly sold on the Fighter 4 vs. Brown Bear thing

People armed with spears successfully hunted bears. Can't be that far out of bounds.

On the one hand, I really like the idea of a "sweet spot" that's intentionally been expanded to cover most, if not all, of the game's levels. The earliest levels are for learning the ropes, or for feeling out the character you're playing, but after that, it's awesome adventure the whole way.

You can look at a 'sweet spot' as a flaw (it means the rest of the game is essentially flawed on some level) or as a positive (the best of a range of good experiences).

On the other hand, I like the idea that a story expands in scope and impact, too.
So I guess, but can't say for sure, that I like all of them, as long as I always feel like I can experience a similar "play-feel" as the levels go by while still feeling that the scope and impact of my actions has grown.

No reason an RPG can't deliver both.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think if you're gonna make the argument that level 1-4 PCs in 5e seem weaker than other editions, I can't really argue that. But if you're saying they aren't much better than the average person in the game world (or worse, in reality), then I gotta wonder about perspective. Even in 1e, where level 1 PCs were probably at their weakest, are still better than most everyone in real life by comparison.

 

[Pickles III]

A level 1 caster can cast spells, let alone an infinite amount of times, bending the fabric of reality. An average, even highly trained person can't do that.
A level 2 druid can change into a bear. don't know many high trained real people that can do that

Their methods may be arcane but their achievements are only what mundane people can achieve.

A 3rd level barbarian can take more abuse than a rhino

Only with HP as meat, which they patently are not. They must also reflect that highly skilled individuals are adept at not being hit as well as hitting more & harder.

A 4th level fighter can routinely go toe to toe and win against a brown bear with nothing more than a sword.
etc, etc

I know gladiators did this but I can't find the details (they may have always had numbers in their favour)

Not sure what you think highly trained real life people can do, but I've never seen any actual equivalent examples.

They are all navy seals. Exceptional specimens but still "normal" in the sense they really exist. (Parkour & Backflips in general are things that seem to transcend anything I can imagine being able to do )

Besides things like regeneration and taking/inflicting more damage than an elephant?

That line was a joke referencing the huge arguments about mythic "martial" abilities. It's preposterous to think "normal" people could go toe to toe with dragons, reality is being bent. But fighters cannot be allowed to leap farther than average joes or what have you. (& anyone can succeed at any skill)

Anyway I'm not really that far from you - first level PCs are hyper competent but plausibly so (not Rey like) but by 9th level at the latest they are distorting reality the change happens gradually over those levels.


( I sort of like all the levels I have played up to 7th. First level is mercifully short by the book, as is second. I liked 4th ed all the way to 16th which is as high as I got. 3.5 stopped being fun for me by 11th & got worse from 8th or 9th. Contrary so what someone else posted many of my campaigns broke down at that level due to game issues rather than boredom etc)