D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

[MechaPilot]

A lot of people want to devalue choice by sidestepping the consequences of those choices. I don't get it. If I make the choice to play an orc, I'm not going to pretend I'm not an orc and expect everyone else to pretend I'm not an orc in order to avoid the negatives of being an orc.

Don't claim you know what's running through other people's minds. You're not a mind reader, and you frequently misinterpret, spin, or flat out misrepresent things that other people say (for example by saying that EVERYONE who disagrees with you in this thread was fabricating the basis for their opinions. I'm sure not).

 

[Zardnaar]

The PHB has the same exact wording in it as what I quoted from the basic PDF. I'm just going with the basic PDF because I'm at my computer and the PDF is handy.

Also, the -X% off average is a valid way of measuring how much lower a lower Int is. It's certainly just as valid as going with the IQ = Int x 10 option. Plus, it has the benefit of actually reflecting what happens when a lower Int character attempts an Int check to do something. Using the IQ = Int x 10 option results in a situation where the character is actually making smarter decisions when making Int checks than he is when being roleplayed as IQ = Int x 10 (how's that for some dissonance).

Also, I don't think anyone here is really saying a low Int character shouldn't be played as if he were dumber (I'm certainly not). We're simply debating the degree of difference involved. Also, how many people who make a character with a low Int actually know or have seen a person they can use as a model for making that character seem real and not like a stereotype of the mentally handicapped? How likely are they to pull that off without potentially offending a member of the group who may have a mentally handicapped friend or relative?

And while we're jumping on people for playing low Int characters too smartly, why aren't we jumping on people for playing high Int characters too stupidly? Most people of average or greater intelligence who play a low int character probably know just as much about how to think less intelligently as an average person knows how to think like a genius. "You're not a genius and therefore can't think like one? Then don't put that 16 in Int if you can't play it right."

One can at least attempt to play not stupidly with a high intelligence.

 

[Maxperson]

And while we're jumping on people for playing low Int characters too smartly, why aren't we jumping on people for playing high Int characters too stupidly? Most people of average or greater intelligence who play a low int character probably know just as much about how to think less intelligently as an average person knows how to think like a genius. "You're not a genius and therefore can't think like one? Then don't put that 16 in Int if you can't play it right."

Apples and oranges. As I already pointed out, there is a rather big difference between deliberately playing a low int stat as more than it is, and being unable to play a high int stat correctly.

 

[MechaPilot]

One can at least attempt to play not stupidly with a high intelligence.

Most people with average intelligence are probably not trying to play "stupidly," or as if they had an "average" mental capacity. Most people try to be smart, if for no other reason than to save themselves some difficulty.

Apples and oranges. As I already pointed out, there is a rather big difference between deliberately playing a low int stat as more than it is, and being unable to play a high int stat correctly.

No, it's not apples and oranges. Most people do not know how a low intelligence mind works any more than they know how the mind of genius works. Asking them to portray either one is asking them to do the impossible: emulate something with no concept of how it works. Maybe, if the player actually knew someone to model the character off of they could do it, because then they would have greater education as to what such a person is like. However, to do it with no model is inviting a character to be built on stereotypes of the mentally handicapped.

 

[Yardiff]

When -25% is the max penalty you can get -15% is pretty big.

Roleplaying ability scores is just do your best. Avoiding roleplaying ability scores, in my opinion, is just poor roleplaying.

 

[MechaPilot]

Avoiding roleplaying ability scores, in my opinion, is just poor roleplaying.

To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread is talking about avoiding role-playing their ability scores. We've mostly just been having disagreements about how hardcore stupid (or smart) you have to act with lower (or higher) Int scores. The rules don't give any real advice on this, so it's up to each table to make their own determination of whether a 5 Int equals 50 IQ, 75 IQ, or something else.

 

[Yardiff]

To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread is talking about avoiding role-playing their ability scores. We've mostly just been having disagreements about how hardcore stupid (or smart) you have to act with lower (or higher) Int scores. The rules don't give any real advice on this, so it's up to each table to make their own determination of whether a 5 Int equals 50 IQ, 75 IQ, or something else.

I agree completely and was probably reading more into the posts then was there.

The discusions about what a low mental ability score is equal to has been going on for years on verious forums. As you said it pretty comes down what your table agrees to.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Okay, but Lefty as a character concept is average-to-good at mental tasks in general (he's quite capable of inventing a new kind of lock) but very bad at knowing lore (because he can't read). The trouble is, that if I make him Int 11, say, there's no way I can penalize his lore-based skill checks such as History and so on, because skills only add positive modifiers and there are no negative skills. I have to put the -3 on Int as a baseline, so the lore-based skills come out right, then boost it with +4 on Investigation to make that come out right too.

If Lefty is average-to-good at mental tasks in general, then give him average Intelligence. That is the raison d'être of this whole "Intelligence score" mechanic. If Lefty does not have average Intelligence, then in gameplay he will not be average-to-good at mental tasks in general. Can Lofty perform [insert mental task here]? Intelligence check. -3 penalty. This isn't tyrannical DMing; this is fundamentally how the ability score rules work.

And it is simply not true that you cannot penalize Lefty's lore-based skill checks. Of course you can. You can opt not to make the rolls, or make them with disadvantage, on the basis that it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to do that. If I make a character who's terrified of water and doesn't know how to swim, I don't give him a very low Strength score and model his average strength by buying up the other Strength-based skills. I give him an average Strength score, because that's what Strength is there for, and then when the need for a swimming check arises, say "Sir Archibald the Dry doesn't know how to swim".

To paraphrase the introduction to the PHB: specific beats general. You don't have to try and use the rules for general lack of ability to model a specific lack of ability. It's not what they're there for, and it results in unintended and undesirable consequences.

 

[Maxperson]

No, it's not apples and oranges. Most people do not know how a low intelligence mind works any more than they know how the mind of genius works.

You can attempt to mimic the lower score just fine, even if you don't have perfect understanding. You cannot attempt to mimic the higher score as it is completely beyond you.

Asking them to portray either one is asking them to do the impossible: emulate something with no concept of how it works. Maybe, if the player actually knew someone to model the character off of they could do it, because then they would have greater education as to what such a person is like. However, to do it with no model is inviting a character to be built on stereotypes of the mentally handicapped.

You know what else is impossible? Perfectly roleplaying anything other than yourself. I guess we shouldn't expect people to roleplay, then.

 

[Maxperson]

To the best of my knowledge, no one in this thread is talking about avoiding role-playing their ability scores. We've mostly just been having disagreements about how hardcore stupid (or smart) you have to act with lower (or higher) Int scores. The rules don't give any real advice on this, so it's up to each table to make their own determination of whether a 5 Int equals 50 IQ, 75 IQ, or something else.

Iserith is arguing pretty hard that low can equal high, which is an avoidance of roleplaying the low score.