D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day

[Flamestrike]

Wasn't the entrance blocked by rubble? Or am I having a senior moment.

I don't think it will work as the giants break our initiative so there going to focus fire us as we split up I don't think Tom or ed would survive nor jub tbh

Nah the westen side of the cavern is littered with rubble from the collapsed roof.

Its difficult terrain for creatures smaller than large and provides cover for small creatures. You can also hide in it.

 

[Azurewraith]

Nah the westen side of the cavern is littered with rubble from the collapsed roof.

Its difficult terrain for creatures smaller than large and provides cover for small creatures. You can also hide in it.

Ah my bad I was filling in order forms at the time very tedious. Explains the mix up. Not much good hiding after everyone watched you sprint over.

 

[BoldItalic]

What happened to a new thread being created and the debate format? It looks like you guys are playing this out which was (I thought) agreed to be unfeasible.

Mea culpa. I've started debating it here pending the new thread being created. But it's all mixed up, which is not good.

Ideally, we need to identify a line of play for this encounter that is as optimal as we, and the audience, can dream up and work out what resources are likely to be soaked up if we do it that way. "Getting hit by the giant while the wolves wake up" isn't much of a plan. Can people do better?

Pending seeing what the bard does that might change the situation, and assuming we don't want to go nova on the first encounter, as I see it, the paladin basically has four sensible options: escape, intimidate (he's +8), attack or heal.

If he attacks, it's +1 Longsword: 2 attacks at +11 to hit; 1d8+6 slashing +1d8 radiant (from Improved Divine Smite). If both attacks hit (if) average damage is 30 which isn't enough to one-shot a winter wolf, let alone a giant. So if he stands there and fights, at the present rate of damage he'll be dead before his second turn.

If he uses his first action to heal himself up, which he can with LoH, it only postpones the inevitable by one round. But he would do that if it would give time for the others to do something game-changing.

 

[iserith]

I'm awake now. I generally sleep about 1 am Pacific time. I'll look things over. Running this will be long and tedious. I figured we'd talk about and Flamestrike roll the thing out himself using recommended tactics.

OOC: I'm not sure the low CR is what matters when doing xp calculations. It is if the monsters significantly contribute to the group. I think Winter Wolves with a breath weapon the party can't avoid given there are no immunities to cold and pack tactics significantly contributes to the difficulty of the encounter. Their xp should be counted when calculating the difficult, especially when the strongest creature is only CR 8 or 9. That is not a significant difference in 5E. You should count the full xp of the Winter Wolves given they have a special attack the PCs can't avoid that does a good amount of AoE damage and a significant advantage to their attack rolls with Pack Tactics to hit in a game with Bounded Accuracy.

This is not 3E where significant difference in challenge rating automatically indicate a creature is too weak to count. In 5E winter wolves are an extremely powerful lower CR monster that would contribute significantly to almost any fight due to the quality of their special abilities. Pack Tactics and unavoidable breath weapons are substantially more powerful than say a couple of extra orcs or something similar. The DM in me would count the Winter Wolves in full for this reason. That is why there is no hard and fast lower CR rule for not giving xp. I believe that Winter Wolves very much do count as "significant contributors to the combat." 75 hit points is not weak in 5E in either given the lower damage potential of PCs.

This is a DM call. If you think they don't significantly contribute due to their low CR, then their XP counts toward the budget, but not toward the adjusted XP which goes to Difficulty. Even if it was considered significant, it only bumps this to a Hard encounter which is still within the parameters of this experiment (Medium or Hard encounters only).

 

[iserith]

Mea culpa. I've started debating it here pending the new thread being created. But it's all mixed up, which is not good.

Ideally, we need to identify a line of play for this encounter that is as optimal as we, and the audience, can dream up and work out what resources are likely to be soaked up if we do it that way. "Getting hit by the giant while the wolves wake up" isn't much of a plan. Can people do better?

Pending seeing what the bard does that might change the situation, and assuming we don't want to go nova on the first encounter, as I see it, the paladin basically has four sensible options: escape, intimidate (he's +8), attack or heal.

If he attacks, it's +1 Longsword: 2 attacks at +11 to hit; 1d8+6 slashing +1d8 radiant (from Improved Divine Smite). If both attacks hit (if) average damage is 30 which isn't enough to one-shot a winter wolf, let alone a giant. So if he stands there and fights, at the present rate of damage he'll be dead before his second turn.

If he uses his first action to heal himself up, which he can with LoH, it only postpones the inevitable by one round. But he would do that if it would give time for the others to do something game-changing.

What I proposed was simple and keeps everyone honest:

1. You read the encounter and describe how you'd run it.

2. You then describe how you'd play it given a DM running it how you would.

3. Finally you estimate how many resources the PCs would use up (perhaps a range based on contingencies).

No dice rolling required. No rulings by Flamestrike required. No lag time waiting for anyone to post.

 

[Azurewraith]

Mea culpa. I've started debating it here pending the new thread being created. But it's all mixed up, which is not good.

Ideally, we need to identify a line of play for this encounter that is as optimal as we, and the audience, can dream up and work out what resources are likely to be soaked up if we do it that way. "Getting hit by the giant while the wolves wake up" isn't much of a plan. Can people do better?

Pending seeing what the bard does that might change the situation, and assuming we don't want to go nova on the first encounter, as I see it, the paladin basically has four sensible options: escape, intimidate (he's +8), attack or heal.

If he attacks, it's +1 Longsword: 2 attacks at +11 to hit; 1d8+6 slashing +1d8 radiant (from Improved Divine Smite). If both attacks hit (if) average damage is 30 which isn't enough to one-shot a winter wolf, let alone a giant. So if he stands there and fights, at the present rate of damage he'll be dead before his second turn.

If he uses his first action to heal himself up, which he can with LoH, it only postpones the inevitable by one round. But he would do that if it would give time for the others to do something game-changing.

I figured our line of play per celtavian I agreed was disable the giants mop up the wolves position to focus down 1 giant at a time

 

[Celtavian]

This is a DM call. If you think they don't significantly contribute due to their low CR, then their XP counts toward the budget, but not toward the adjusted XP which goes to Difficulty. Even if it was considered significant, it only bumps this to a Hard encounter which is still within the parameters of this experiment (Medium or Hard encounters only).

I don't recall the parameters being medium or hard encounters only. Is that self-imposed? I'm ok with Deadly. My opinion was based on my view as a DM. Winter Wolves in my calculation would be used for the multiplier because they are significant contributors to the battle due to their special capabilities.

 

[iserith]

I don't recall the parameters being medium or hard encounters only. Is that self-imposed? I'm ok with Deadly. My opinion was based on my view as a DM. Winter Wolves in my calculation would be used for the multiplier because they are significant contributors to the battle due to their special capabilities.

DMG page 84: "Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer."

Flamestrike went with 7 encounters and is sticking to Medium and Hard.

 

[Celtavian]

I figured our line of play per celtavian I agreed was disable the giants mop up the wolves position to focus down 1 giant at a time

At the moment we have to disperse. Concentrated breath weapons by Winter Wolves are going to hammer the party. I see the paladin going down if the winter wolves are allowed to fire off. Paladins have weak dex saves and the paladin Bold Italic built is a cream puff as far as hit points go. The wizard doesn't have polymorph to provide a hit point buffer. If we stay close, the Winter wolves will chew us up with their breath weapons. That's why this is so hard to do online. My coordinated group would likely engage the giants first, hypnotic pattern the winter wolves, and focus fire archery one of the giants while using the dodge action against the other after using a Bonus Action to cast shield of faith. That's why this is better as a discussion. It would take forever to coordinate as my group usually coordinates in PbP. Which means you won't get a real look at how this would be handled. I didn't think Flamestrike wanted to run a PbP game and that's quickly what this is becoming.

 

[Celtavian]

DMG page 84: "Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer."

Flamestrike went with 7 encounters and is sticking to Medium and Hard.

Ah. Thanks for pointing that out. When I'm running the game, I usually hit harder I guess depending on the creature. Some are weaker than their CR and some like Winter Wolves (creatures with Pack Tactics in general) stronger as a group.