D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

Semi-Joking... Are you sure you folks are playing DnD and not some other game?

No combat for an entire session is extreme, not just for me but imagine for most people here.... given that one of the pillar books of the game is the Monster Manual


It doesn't happen often I'm my game, but the very best sessions are the ones where there is no combat. Those are the ones where the story has taken front row and it's all rollplay all the way. I wish I had the skill as a DM to have those sort of combat lite games, and I think that the games where combat is a rare and dangerous thing are those run by a craftsman DM.

I like to think I'm pretty good as well with 36 years of DMing under my belt
 

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To be fair, there is a key difference here:

There's nothing wrong with non-op. Don't have a problem with it. So long as non-oppers are okay with their own choices. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters, is that you're OK with your own choices. IME, people are okay with their own choices aren't very concerned with the choices of others. That in turn again IME, makes for good tables since everyone is happy with what they have, and what they're doing with what they have.

The issue is straightforward. People make their choices in the service of certain expectations about how the game would play and how it will make them feel. This is not a problem at a homogenous table, no matter what the style. At an inhomogeneous table there are two possible outcomes:
(1) People bend their choices to satisfy themselves while not overly damping others' enjoyment,
(2) They don't

And (1) is simply not always achievable.

You're statement argues that everybody's satisfaction should be independent, and no-one should care about how you getting yours affects anybody else. That would be great, but it doesn't actually work that way. Are you seriously okay with the person who wants to role-play a three hour 'get to know you' with some NPC every damn session, leaving little time for any other aspect of the game? After all, how are their choices affecting your fun? <\sarcasm>.

When the table is heterogenous people should aim for (1) and hope it can work it, and sometimes even that compromise position doesn't work well enough for everyone's enjoyment. I couldn't disagree more with your, 'I should play my game, and it's not my problem how anybody else feels about it.' That's the limitation of social games.
 

Because it has less powers and abilities(though plenty of spells) that allow me to affect the game world without having to ask the DM for permission or interpretation, and the system as a whole emphasizes DM permission and interpretation more than 3E and 4E did.

Sorry I was having Easter dinner and missed several pages (!!!).

I think your experience may be due more to your DM than to 5e, because what you're describing...asking the DM for "permission" to do things...hasn't been my experience at all.

Unless you are referring to "permission" for things that aren't in the rules. I.e. "Hey can I have the XYZ superpower from this 4e home brew?" "No." But that's not player agency...

Can you give me an example of something your DM didn't give you permission to do, despite the abilities listed on your character sheet that said you could?
 

Sorry I was having Easter dinner and missed several pages (!!!).

I think your experience may be due more to your DM than to 5e, because what you're describing...asking the DM for "permission" to do things...hasn't been my experience at all.

Unless you are referring to "permission" for things that aren't in the rules. I.e. "Hey can I have the XYZ superpower from this 4e home brew?" "No." But that's not player agency...

Can you give me an example of something your DM didn't give you permission to do, despite the abilities listed on your character sheet that said you could?

You're missing the point. I want to know roughly what I can do and my chances without asking the DM. I want to have powers spells and abilities for stuff worked out in advance, known to the player. It's not about the DM refusing permission, it's about having to ask in the first place.
 

It doesn't happen often I'm my game, but the very best sessions are the ones where there is no combat. Those are the ones where the story has taken front row and it's all rollplay all the way. I wish I had the skill as a DM to have those sort of combat lite games, and I think that the games where combat is a rare and dangerous thing are those run by a craftsman DM.

I like to think I'm pretty good as well with 36 years of DMing under my belt

To all...

I fully understand that it CAN happen....

My comments were based on the inference from the poster that it is a COMMON occurrence in that particular game.

I could be wrong in inferring that but the wording used in that post and previous posts makes me come to that conclusion.
 


This is a rather odd statement...

I would argue the point that playing and winning are the same in that context.
Not at all.

Are you inferring that there are people who play this game and want to "lose"?
Nope, not even close.


Those who focus to much on the "play to win" style have a lot of trouble enjoying the game itself, outside of the combat aspects. To them, anything else is irrelevant. (Thecasualoblivion is obviously one of those. The only thing that matters to them is optimized play - specifically optimized for combat, anything else if foolish and/or incomprehensible to them.) Basically they need a clearly defined goal to measure themselves against, and achieving that is how they win, and anything that doesn't contribute to achieving that is a waste of time. People who don't focus on achieving the goal are either foolish, or deliberately wasting their time. They also tend to be rather selfish, in the sense that they want their character to out-perform other characters in combat. 5e makes it harder to dominate a combat with a single character, so they don't enjoy it as much.

Those who want to "play" the game generally consider combat a secondary concern. They want to socialize with NPC's, solve puzzles, explore new areas. They actually pay attention to the DM when a new area or city is described, instead of interrupting to ask for a perception check so they can see if there is anyone waiting to ambush them. They want to develop their characters and be part of a story, not just a series of XP and treasure generating encounters.

You also have those RP types who can't or won't build a combat functional character, and the rest of the group has to carry them through combats. They are almost as bad as the "my characters are optimized death machines with no personalty" players.

Most people can switch between the play styles as needed - their characters can contribute in combat (they may not be super-optimized but they hold their own), but they also contribute outside of combat. Their characters have personalities and stories, and can do things aside from kill better and faster. They aren't just combat monsters with no social skills, or the minimum social skills needed to meet the expected requirements of the module so they can get to the next combat. Unfortunately, most "Organized Play" situations involve pre-written scenarios with a set number of combat encounters and non-combat encounters that have to be completed within a 4 hour or less time frame. And the social encounters have no impact or relevance after the game session is over, but the combat has lasting rewards in the form of XP and treasure. By it's very nature, Organized Play favors combat optimized characters. That is not necessarily the case with home games - the DM has vastly more agency and control of the flow of the game. They tend to be more free form, and straight combat may be much less important than your characters out of combat decisions and actions.

The "Play to Win!" players tend to do much better in Organized Play situations (because the goals are clearly laid out and heavily feature combat), and 4e was also designed to cater to that playstyle. 5e has Organized Play with the Adventurer's League, but really shines in the home games. The rules are simpler and more streamlined so it's harder to come up with "game breaking" builds that make other players irrelevant.

Powergaming isn't a bad thing in and of itself - I optimize my characters all the time, because I want them to do interesting things in combat or out of combat. And being useless in combat doesn't feel good to me. But just like anything else, if you take it to an extreme it's not good or healthy for the game.
 

You're missing the point. I want to know roughly what I can do and my chances without asking the DM. I want to have powers spells and abilities for stuff worked out in advance, known to the player. It's not about the DM refusing permission, it's about having to ask in the first place.

Basically, you don't want the DM to be able to say "No" to you. That way you can "beat the DM" as well as "win" at D&D.
 

I think your experience may be due more to your DM than to 5e, because what you're describing...asking the DM for "permission" to do things...hasn't been my experience at all.

Rulings not rules by definition is dm fiat. As a DM based ruling consider when advantage and wild magic surge apply.

5e reduces rule optimization by design, removing game mastery (not role play mastery). For some that's good, for others not so much.

There a reason checkers and go have different level of mastery, and take different amounts of time to play a game. I rarely have to worry about about korigatachi in checkers.
 

You're missing the point. I want to know roughly what I can do and my chances without asking the DM. I want to have powers spells and abilities for stuff worked out in advance, known to the player. It's not about the DM refusing permission, it's about having to ask in the first place.

To be fair.... a player will not know how everything is going to work in advance without consultation with the DM.

To many issues within the game that is chalked up to "Expect Table Variation" (ETV)... from spells to game mechanics, many items not cut and dry and definitely gray
 

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