D&D 5E Curse of Strahd spoiler-filled general discussion

Except that "deadly" doesn't mean "the party is likely to die." It just means "there's a reasonable chance somebody might." The party in the game I run isn't optimized, and they routinely beat encounters that are several times the deadly XP budget.
And if that's the type of game you like, sure - but my point wasn't just that these encounters are "deadly," as per the encounter definition, but rather: wildly, impossibly over the party's level. The windmill? It's sort of like sending the party up against an adult blue dragon. 6 vampire spawn is actually slightly harder than an adult red dragon. Why would you put a level 4 party against an adult blue dragon? And why would the book suggest that level 4 is about the right level to do that? (Did the book really think the party would just ignore children in cages and not try to kill the hags?)

These aren't encounters that just difficult, or someone might die - I would estimate that a level 4 party against an adult blue dragon leaves a 0% chance for success. It has a breath weapon that can kill the party in one turn - just like the hags can polymorph 3 characters in one turn, if all three are together. Anyway, there's a difference between "deadly" and "no chance" and these encounters are "no chance." Mostly I'm just pointing them out so people can decide if they want to try to discourage the party from facing an adult blue dragon head on at level 4, or how deadly of a game they want to run.
 

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And if that's the type of game you like, sure - but my point wasn't just that these encounters are "deadly," as per the encounter definition, but rather: wildly, impossibly over the party's level. The windmill? It's sort of like sending the party up against an adult blue dragon. 6 vampire spawn is actually slightly harder than an adult red dragon. Why would you put a level 4 party against an adult blue dragon? And why would the book suggest that level 4 is about the right level to do that? (Did the book really think the party would just ignore children in cages and not try to kill the hags?)

These aren't encounters that just difficult, or someone might die - I would estimate that a level 4 party against an adult blue dragon leaves a 0% chance for success. It has a breath weapon that can kill the party in one turn - just like the hags can polymorph 3 characters in one turn, if all three are together. Anyway, there's a difference between "deadly" and "no chance" and these encounters are "no chance." Mostly I'm just pointing them out so people can decide if they want to try to discourage the party from facing an adult blue dragon head on at level 4, or how deadly of a game they want to run.

I like the idea of the characters being in over their head. However, I don't want a TPK unless the players make bad choices. Thanks for pointing out some of the tough spots. I'll have to think up a plan-B for combat failure. I'd hate to always use the 'a powerful NPC has come to rescue you!' escape plan.

I'm thinking that in the Death House if the players get defeated before the last room that I'll have them become live sacrifices and the shambling mound will come out and start a three way fight with the players and whatever undead creatures had defeated the players.

For the hags, I can see where they would keep the players alive in a cage or something like that.

For the vampire spawn I could have the spawns fight each other over their 'food' and have that give the last man standing a chance to do something heroic.
 

A long and detailed discussion of why the night hags are a "more than deadly" encounter follows: just warning you in case you don't care!


So, it's definitely not exactly like an adult blue dragon: that's a situation where a level 4 party has no chance and will all die pretty much 100% of the time, outside of constant natural 20s on every roll. There is at least one viable path to victory with the hags that I can think of, although it still requires some luck and good planning (and possibly ignoring one of the monster's key abilities).

With a complete tactical knowledge of the situation and the creatures being faced and plenty of time to think about it (none of which the characters would likely have), the best chance I can come up with against the hags is a surprise Silence spell - it's on the cleric list (you DO have a cleric, right?) so it can be prepared, and it curiously has no save (which is great because they get advantage on saves). It's also ideal because it shuts down the hag's best options (casting) while also plausibly allowing the characters to fight her without drawing the attention of her daughters, who are about 10 feet away (maybe closer to 20 if you can get her on the ground level - also nice because there are no windows). Also, it's one of the ways the tiny combat area works in your favor - it can easily lock down a whole floor.

If they can isolate the leader (easy enough) and silence that floor (again, auto-works) AND then block her from going up the stairs or otherwise leaving (the hard part), she's actually a reasonable threat: reduced to simple melee attacks, it would take her an average of 8 rounds to kill a level 4 party meatshield. She still has awesome damage resistance (hopefully they have more than 1 silvered weapon by now), great AC, and a ton of HP to chew through, AND you're weakening your own casters, but at least you have a chance - until she shoves your party out of the way (18 Str) and goes and gets her daughters. If you have ways to knock her prone or otherwise lock down her movement, that's ideal (grappling her will still be difficult - 18 Str). Assuming the party was fully rested and novas (don't forget the cleric is concentrating on the silence, though) it should be possible for them to take her out before she downs one or more of them (again, assuming she's unsuccessful in escaping and doesn't specifically target squishies in that tiny, tiny combat area). I could see an optimized party of 4 (with multiple silver weapons and Ireena in tow) doing it in about 3 or 4 rounds on average.

But all this does is remove one hag from the equation - although that's enough to break the coven, making the remaining two night hags "only" more than 2.5x a "deadly" encounter (instead of 4x - or 8.5x for all three!). A similar tactic might work on the daughters, although you'll likely want to come back tomorrow - but fortunately they seem to be described as a bit dumber than the leader and it's probably ok for the DM to be less tactical when playing them (like having them investigate what's up one at a time, for example). And without their coven spells they mostly just hit you (sleep is their worst effect and that's really just an action trade, unless they can catch several characters at once).

This is still a best-case, though. Otherwise the hags have 9 chances to lock down up to 3 targets (polymorph, hold person, bestow curse - all DC 15) and while it might take one hag an average of 8 turns to kill one level 4 meatshield, it won't take 3 hags more than 3. (Fortunately the area is so small I'm assuming they'd never use Lightning Bolt, which could easily kill one or two characters.) One thing you can do to tone down this type of encounter - if it comes to this - is rule that when a coven is broken, not only can they not cast coven spells, but all current coven spells end. It's a reasonable interpretation and would likely help a lot.

This is all ALSO assuming the night hags haven't bothered to keep up with their heartstones, which makes them effectively immortal since they can just leave at any time on their turn. If you include that in the mix, Silence is really your only option - assuming the DM rules that it also ruins the Etherealness action, which is reasonable to interpret either way. If they have that ability you should never be able to kill them unless you can somehow find the object on their person and remove it (they don't sleep) or do massive damage in a single round (might work on one of them).

Interestingly, switching the group to green hags doesn't actually change much: it just removes 30 HP from each hag (maybe one round's worth of damage) and their insane damage resistance (which mostly matters if you don't have silver weapons). It also lowers their coven spell DCs by 2. Also, instead of ethereal, they go super-stealth invisible at will (easier to contain). They're actually even a bit more thematically appropriate (since they like "bringing people low and seeing hope turn into despair" instead of just killing them really slowly in their sleep), although their Illusory Appearance is less powerful than the night hags' Change Shape and allows a save to disbelieve. Still, they're much more approachable for a 4th level group. And for lowering the risk you also lower the reward: the party doesn't get three rocks that can cure any disease forever, either.
 
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Thanks - I was actually wondering if changing them to greenhags was a better idea.
I've convinced myself that it's a better play; ethereal is too hard to counter, the DR is way too much, thematically closer to what they're doing, etc. Glad my horribly over-long post was at least useful to someone. :)

That's at least 1 out of 2918 so far! :)
 

I've convinced myself that it's a better play; ethereal is too hard to counter, the DR is way too much, thematically closer to what they're doing, etc. Glad my horribly over-long post was at least useful to someone. :)

That's at least 1 out of 2918 so far! :)

I've been following along as I was of a similar mind regarding the overwhelming challenge of the coven. I'm also looking at the green hag as a possible substitute and agree with your assessment. I think the normal weapons resistance is the biggest hurdle outside of the coven spells, as the night hag's spell list is pretty limited as far as save-or-suck (sleep can be mitigated by using actions to wake up those affected and vicious mockery over claw attacks is a losing proposition for a hag).

But the coven spells...even going "easy" on a group and favoring damage spells over save-or-suck is going to be deadly for a party averaging 4th or 5th level. 3 8d6 lightning bolts and 3 phantasmal killers on low will save targets would wipe out a party just as easily as the curses, hold persons, and polymorphs. DC 13 saves are still going to be 50/50 shots for most characters at this level.

My cleric player is likely to have silence memorized, but I don't want to count on that. I've been thinking of other ways of separating the coven, and the best I can come up with is give them a chance to take out Morgantha during a confrontation during the Dream Biscuits event back in the village.

I think I'll replace them with green hags, which will at least give the player's a shot at seeing through the illusion. The same cleric also has Magic Initiate (druid) for Faerie Fire, so could quite likely mitigate Morgantha's use Invisibility to escape. If she does escape and reunite with her daughters, then at least they're somewhat aware of what they could be facing (Intelligence(Arcana) checks to know that hags with their covens gain nasty spellcasting abilities).

Of course, if they don't pursue Morgantha after Dream Biscuits, then perhaps her daughters are Night Hags when they finally get around to checking out the windmill at a later time. However, between the windmill imagery in Death House and the deed, I have a feeling they're going to see it as a potential adventure site/base of operations pretty quickly.
 

However, between the windmill imagery in Death House and the deed, I have a feeling they're going to see it as a potential adventure site/base of operations pretty quickly.
I know, right? The deed and the pastry encounter in Barovia both draw them to the windmill quickly after hitting level 3.
 

Yeesh! The Death House is brutal! We had seven 2nd-level characters go in. Only two came out. And that's only because they made it as far as the entry hall before succumbing to their wounds, only to make their death saves and self-stabilize. Both lay there for four hours before waking up and then running out into the mist ...
 

Yeesh! The Death House is brutal! We had seven 2nd-level characters go in. Only two came out. And that's only because they made it as far as the entry hall before succumbing to their wounds, only to make their death saves and self-stabilize. Both lay there for four hours before waking up and then running out into the mist ...
Wow! Mind to share a summary of what happened? Did they try to fight the mound?
 

Something I've been debating internally for a while is whether the Hallow spell cast on Strahd's resting place with eternal rest would prevent him from resurrecting after being defeated by the player characters. The spell does allow a charisma saving throw, but only to those who are "entering the area." Its unclear how Hallow's "Eternal Rest" effect interacts with an automated version of the create undead spell, which is essentially what the dark powers have set up for Strahd.

I can see it being argued either way, although I'm generally leaning towards complete negation with no saving throw. For one, the players invested a huge deal of resources just to cast the spell, and there is the question of who exactly is making the saving throw. Strahd is in limbo, and him coming back as a ghost kind of goes against the whole "eternal rest" bit. The dark powers are trapped in the Amber Temple, making it questionable as to whether they can do much at all about the situation.
 
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