D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

[MoonSong]

In the post I've just quoted, you have attributed something to me which is the opposite of what I said. You quote me as saying "Well you asked for the ability to hide in dimensions... you didn't specify a particular level or a particular spell." I did not post that (maybe [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] did?). I was posting the opposite, making the point that there is a huge difference between an effect that comes online at 3rd level and one that comes online at 13th level.

I don't know why it quoted you. I must have done something wrong when deleting text.

I don't want to comment on your mental state. I just want to suggest something.

Even if you're the sort of person who feels guilty for running a red light on an empty street late at night

Yes, that's me.

(Yes, you GM has to allow this. The idea that all 5e GMs are such sticklers for the rules as written that they won't let you tweak your sorcerer's spell list seems very surprising to me.)

The problem is getting a DM that wants to cooperate. It is harder than it sounds. At least for me, I donn't feel comfortable asking for special treatment.

 

[MoonSong]

How? Why?

DM's have no power beyond that which their players give to them. (Note: This statement is sincere, and originates from a long-time DM.)

That is bizarre behavior. I can see "well, we really need a cleric..." (I can't un-see it, even after all these years), but heck, play what you want. These are AL DMs?

DM wants to start a game, DM opens a casting for players, I propose a sorcerer, DM "I already have a wizard. Out"

I think you're just unusually unlucky with your pool of DMs.

-very unlucky

It is perplexing.

Thank you. It is a small victory.

That is what's making me wonder. The big thing that 5e has really done for the game and especially for DMs, is get away from the RAW-obsession and back to openness. Not only not embracing that, but actively repudiating it is... unfortunate.

I think that many bad DMs just wanted the power of not having to respond to RAW. Or it is just that many skipped 3rd and 4th and don't get sorcerers. Or maybe they don't feel that confident tinkering with a new system?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think that many bad DMs just wanted the power of not having to respond to RAW. Or it is just that many skipped 3rd and 4th and don't get sorcerers. Or maybe they don't feel that confident tinkering with a new system?

Sorcerer did start out as just a vehicle for Spontaneous casting. So many years of people wanting an alternative to Vancian (mostly utterly broken mana systems), and they finally gave us the Sorcerer. I guess it went well, because 5e made everyone Spontaneous. But that left the Sorcerer with no direction/concept...

...except that some fans had found things to do with it in 3e. But I guess we didn't fill out enough surveys during the playtest to let it be known, 'hey I could do this cool thing with the Sorcerer class...' Now it's - well, it shouldn't really be too late. New sub-classes get tossed out there pretty easily.

What kind of Bloodline could work for some of the funner 3e sorcerer concepts?


As far as skipping 3e &4e but not wanting to 'tinker with a new system,' 5e feels as comfortable/familiar to me as any D&D from the 20th century. I'm pretty sure that was part of the point. DM Empowerment means feel free to tinker, too.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

DM wants to start a game, DM opens a casting for players, I propose a sorcerer, DM "I already have a wizard. Out"

That, to me, seems like a DM at high risk of finding them self without others to play with at their table.

Seems completely alien to me, as a DM myself, to think "already got a [broad category of character], so any [similar broad category of character] is out by default." like that.

In my world, it would go more like this: DM wants to start a game, DM opens a casting for players, you propose a sorcerer, me "Nick wants to play a wizard, talk out your spell selections with each other so there is no unwanted overlap, welcome to the game. Know anyone else that wants to play? This table fits 10, but I can bring in a secondary table to get another 6 or so in on the action if need be."

 

[dave2008]

The changes to monster damage and level seem to me like tinkering too. (I've done a lot of monster conversions, levelling up and down, changing damage in light of MM3, etc).

Yes, I should have said some of my tinkering and hacking

Your changes to hit points, healing and AC/DR, on the other hand, I'll cheerfully concede are in a different ballpark - if that's what you mean by hacking, then I am just a tinkerer! How did they work?

They worked well for my group, but I don't really know if they would work generally. With my group it is easy to try out things and adjust / adjudicate on the fly. We all trust each other and it is a collaboration. We just want to have fun. So I don't know if they would hold up if people played a different way.

 

[dave2008]

Interesting. I know you skipped 3e, but that'd've been easy to do then, too - use touch AC, apply DR. It seems it might be more problematic to adapt to 5e, both for want of any REF/touch-AC mechanic, and because hp/damage scaling is so dramatic (already an issue with Heavy Armor Mastery, for instance).

I think it can be recreated in 5e, I've seen some attempts already, but I haven't given it much thought yet. To be honest 5e, and in particular the Next playtest, has really gotten back it the mode of doing a massive rewrite to make my own D&D. I have notes all over that I need to bring together some time and get it done.

Dual-pool hps? Did you run into issues with the 'bloodied HPs' becoming the much more 'important' pool? (I guess you probably didn't, or you wouldn't have stuck with it...) It's an issue that tends to crop up with such systems - if at all possible, you bypass one of the pools, and keeping that from happening impinges on the realism/verisimilitude such systems are typically aimed at addressing.

I was aware of that issue, so there was very few methods to bypass HP. This is how we did it:

Starting HP = Normal Start HP - 10
Starting BHP = 10 (medium size)

HP advance per normal
BHP do not change ( can take a feat to gain +5 per tier)

AC (DR) only applies when you are taking BHP damage

On a hit the player can choose if it will affect HP or BHP (if they choose BHP their armor can reduce the amount of damage). If the player is out of HP, damage automatically applies to BHP

Only a coup de grace directly affects BHP

Off the top of my head I think that was it.

 

[dave2008]

Except it can be stolen, taken away or destroyed. Specially in the middle of an adventuring day. That kills the feel that magic it a part of you. Fluff can change, but it doesn't mean it is not important. I could just not handle mages in 2e, they were too different from what I was looking for..

This is such a non-issue in play that I would just ignore it. Someone has to be trying to be an a-hole to pull a stunt like that.

Not to mention there are, in fantasy, ways to "steal" your bloodline too. That could happen in 3e with the bad DM's you keep talking about.

 

[pemerton]

This is such a non-issue in play that I would just ignore it.

Agreed. I just can't see any balance issues with a Tome Warlock build whose background talks about innate powers and arcane lineage, and hence whose book can't be stolen (thereby triggering a 1 hour refresh process).

I think that many bad DMs just wanted the power of not having to respond to RAW. Or it is just that many skipped 3rd and 4th and don't get sorcerers. Or maybe they don't feel that confident tinkering with a new system?

I would have thought that adding a few spells to the sorcerer list is also a non-issue. Given the D&D tradition of ever-growing spell lists (from supplements, Dragon magazine, etc) it would seem to barely count as tinkering!
[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] seems to think that it might do some sort of damage to 5e play to let sorcerers have access to the effects that you are talking about, but I'm still not seeing it. If players of enchanter wizards have to cope with sorcerers spending sorcery points to get 2 hour Charm Person spells, I'm sure wizard players can cope with a sorcerer casting a 2 hour Rope Trick!

 

[Satyrn]

. Know anyone else that wants to play? This table fits 10, but I can bring in a secondary table to get another 6 or so in on the action if need be."

My head is aching at the thought of that. My ideal player count is 3.

 

[eayres33]

MoonSong, I’m very sorry for you and the DM’s you’ve found. I as 5E allows me to, run an open game. I’ve had one player that has yet to run a PHB or Sword Coast or UA abroved race. If you wanted to add Wizard spells to your non-wizard I’d have no problem, the only question would be what were you giving up?

To get something special you would have to give up something, that would be a negotiation. The next DM in my game was going to be more strict but has opened up, following my example.

If you haven’t found an open DM, I’m sorry but if you know some people and want to run an online game let me know. I’ll run it and work with you on a character that meets your concept.