D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

[BryonD]

Given the general level of hostility that came out of people(as a group) who were unhappy with 4E, not really.

perspective is an interesting thing

 

[thecasualoblivion]

perspective is an interesting thing

Meaning what?

 

[Valetudo]

Meaning we as a whole try to forget all the stupid things we did in the past.

 

[Rabbitbait]

I've read the MM front to back 2 or 3 times, and I've read sections of the DMG sporadically(I don't really DM anymore these days).

That statement, more than any other you have made makes me realise that you play a different game to me. I simply cannot understand a player wanting to read the Monster Manual. For me that would completely ruin the game. I like the challenge and danger of not knowing what I am facing. It seems to me that you want to master a system and win. 5e is more swingy and bounded accuracy makes enemies more dangerous for longer. For me, that is a much better game. I can see why it wouldn't be for you.

 

[MoonSong]

I tried to make this point before but I'll try to present my thoughts more clearly now...there are diminishing returns on knowing all spells... As an example what other spell provides the type of benefits (A totally safe haven where one can take a short rest and or hide) Rope Trick does at it's level? If there isn't one (which I don't think there is) what does it matter if I as a Wizard know 5 other spells that you don't? When it comes time to rest and/or we need safety I'm going to reach for Rope Trick... right? Only now instead of that being my time to shine...you can cast it and when necessary for an extra hour of duration which is always an advantage since it's there if necessary (say when hiding or scouting for a longer period of time) and not if it's not needed...

Assume this is my spell list (at third level)
Alarm
Find Familiar
Floating Disk
Rope trick

And I can Extend and Subtle spell (maximum 3 times per day unless I start losing slots)

The wizard can have the following spells prepared (6)
Burning Hands
Sleep
Shield
Mage Armor
Rope trick
Invisibility

(But Alarm, Floating disk & Find Familiar are rituals so he can do these too)

The wizard can still do the same as I and more. Why so worry about not being able to shine by rope tricking when he can do more things with that slot? (While I can't do anyhting else with the same slot?)

Wait... how are Wizards not expending resources to cast this spell? They also have spell slots that are expended upon casting...same as a sorcerer. You're only spending sorcery points when you want to enhance the spells... something a wizard can't do.

Sorry, I thought it was a ritual.

No I don't think giving up all damage spells would be acceptable (or a good thing since ultimately if you're covering utility you may need to damage something... even if it's not in combat). The bloodlines I would be willing to work with you on as a DM (reduced spell points might be another aspect to evening out the added spells)... But ultimately I would want a final list of the spells you want to be able to cast outside of those on the Sorcerer's list and judge it off that.

Basically is that, unless I'm on a particular mood I refuse to learn and cast outright combat spells, they aren't really needed for utility and I find blasting the most boring kind of magic. You would have to force me to take those spells.

Now on the list of spells I actually miss (Only go to certain level, remember I can only have a few each time, because my problem isn't an specific build for a single character, but to be able to have the kind of characters I enjoy to play. I know there are named spells in there, but WotC broke that rule themselves in EE, and I want the effects for my characters, they tend to be some of the most fun, world changing and overall non-destructive spells)

Alarm
Find Familiar
Identify
Illusory Script
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant

Arcane Lock
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Nystul's Magic Aura
Rope Trick

Bestow Curse
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending

Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Fabricate
Hallucinatory Terrain
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Stone Shape

Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Modify Memory
Passwall
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying

It's not that I don't allow them, it's that my group has agreed to stay away from most of the UA stuff for now since it's not yet in a final form, though we do use SCAG and DMG options in our games. Interesting enough and in support of my first thoughts about this type of swapping with no cost... the Favored Soul is ranked gold (top tier/must take) and specifically called out as overpowered in the 5e sorcerer optimization guide... make of that what you will.

It isn't that overpowered, the other bloodlines are just that bad, Dragon is for resilient blasters (and basically fire blasters, and when everybody thought it was amazing and even OP they were playing it wrong, the errata basically nerfed it), Wild magic is very DM reliant and only if you enjoy the randomness, Storm is flavorful but still limited to one kind of PC, Favored soul supports a variety of concepts, from healers, naturey casters, gishes, blasters, thieves, and even scholarly types. (I don't comment on shadow, I stopped reading by the time I got to "you never blink", and "you look like a corpse")

 

[BryonD]

Meaning what?

Meaning a simple nose count of who thought who was "hostile" would not go in favor of 4E fans. Which doesn't make them right or wrong. But does show that one should question the implicit bias of anyone claiming "hostility".

I see a whole lot less declarations that you simply fear change and hate progress here than was constantly thrown at people who expressed concerns about 4E which frequently mirrored your concerns with 5E.

Again, none of that is to say either side is right or wrong.
But you are reflecting perspective.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I understand that, but I'm also confused, no system, 5E, 4E, or 3E can give every one, everything.

But, in a sense, every system tries to. And, 5e, in particular, is signed up to give a certain sub-set of everyone (all past D&D fans) a certain sub-set of everything (everything they had in those past versions of D&D they were fans of).

But, even though 3e & 4e didn't have a mandate to be all things to all D&Ders, they did go pretty far down the road of being player-option-rich.

3e had thousands of feats and spells and hundreds of advanced Prestige Classes and even some extra-basic non-adventuring NPC classes. It had a detailed skill system that let you define your PC's competence rank-by-rank. An MCing system that was extremely flexible (if a little problematic here and there - some of which 5e fixed, BTW). It had a plethora of race choices, including LA races and templates. It even let you decide how your character and his gear looked, 're-skinning' (within reason) race and equipment. 4e had thousands of feats, hundreds of powers per class, Backgrounds, Themes, Paragon Paths, & Epic Destinies, plenty of races including MM playable races, MCing & Hybrids, and re-skinning was expanded to powers, as well.

I think you are mis-representing my position. Is he just asking for Rope Trick? Because what I've seen is the spell list he wants grow as we've continued discussing to encompass basically his choice of wizard spells to the point that he's not even taking sorcerer spells anymore but instead is basically crafting his own spell list from whatever spells he wants on the Wizard list. Is it unbalancing... gamewise probably not spotlight wise... well let me ask this... would it be different if he wanted a nature themed sorcerer and wanted druid spells... or a healer themed sorcerer and wanted to cherry pick cleric spells?

Not really, and, no, none of that looks like a huge concern for one important reason: the Sorcerer is a 'known spell' class, not a 'prepared spell' class. Whatever some variant Sorcerer might have access to, it's fairly tied to the spells it actually knows, that's a fairly small number - the Druid, Cleric, or Wizard will always be vastly more versatile in what spells they can choose to have available in a given day.

OTOH, if a Sorcerer wanted to pach spells unique to Bards or Warlocks, it might be a bigger potential issue.

If not why is wizard different when it comes to stepping on toes and/or an increase in power/versatility?

Because the wizard already steps on so many toes and has so much versatility, already, perhaps?

Moonsong has me wondering to what extent this is still the case in 5e, but in 3e, the Wizard and Sorcerer essentially shared a spell list. In 5e, the Wizard has the most unique spells (not shared with any other class) at 33. The Sorcerer has 0.

Worst case, if a variant Sorcerer were getting too big for his britches, cut back his Sorcery points or metamagic options.

1. What you say probably applies to people who have a great table already, but to somebody who isn't already at an ideal table, plays at multiple tables of varying degrees, or moves around a lot, what you describe isn't portable or reliable. The system itself is far more portable, and the system doing it right out of the book is far superior to somebody who isn't in as stable of a situation.

The system itself really isn't that portable. 5e isn't designed to be this robust/elegant bit of code, it's natural-language suggestions and guidelines, any DM might run something differently than you might have expected, at any time...

2. There are also matters of taste involved. Some people, including myself, find this sort of DM intervention not to our tastes. For me personally, I would either find something else in the system I'm more or less happy with, find some other table to play at that delivers what I want, or not game at all before I would be inclined to work with a DM to create what I wanted homebrew.

One possible compromise for players - and a DM - who do want to play a game with that level of consistency is to impose that consistency ahead of time. Formal house rules that the DM will commit to sticking to, rather than off the cuff rulings. I seem to remember quite a lot of DMs running 1e that way.
I think I may have been one of them, at least, for a few years...

 

[Eric V]

Meaning a simple nose count of who thought who was "hostile" would not go in favor of 4E fans. Which doesn't make them right or wrong. But does show that one should question the implicit bias of anyone claiming "hostility".

I see a whole lot less declarations that you simply fear change and hate progress here than was constantly thrown at people who expressed concerns about 4E which frequently mirrored your concerns with 5E.

Again, none of that is to say either side is right or wrong.
But you are reflecting perspective.

A possible difference is that 5e is less "change and progress" and more "Return to classic roots/what the game is meant to be" so much of what 5e is about has already been seen (more or less) in other editions. In other words, there's already been time to react to those things.

It's not for nothing that 5e gets called the "Greatest Hits" version of D&D.

 

[Imaro]

Not really, and, no, none of that looks like a huge concern for one important reason: the Sorcerer is a 'known spell' class, not a 'prepared spell' class. Whatever some variant Sorcerer might have access to, it's fairly tied to the spells it actually knows, that's a fairly small number - the Druid, Cleric, or Wizard will always be vastly more versatile in what spells they can choose to have available in a given day.

Two words... diminishing returns. Here's a simplified example that might drive it home... A wizard might have 10 different ways to do 1d10 points of damage... perhaps one is fire and another is force and so on... but if one of those spells affects 90% of all creatures... yeah you get versatility from choosing some of the others but there's diminishing returns on knowing more and more spells that do 1d10. The flip side is if there's only a single spell that does a particular thing at a given level... like Rope Trick. That's the spell that's almost like a signature ability, it's unique. Letting someone cherry pick spells from the list allows them to focus on the spells that have the greatest uniqueness and thus can lead to a stepping on of toes in the game... especially when the class taking said spells has the ability to make them even better... This also tends to alleviate the "I have less spells reasoning because you are getting to cherry pick the best.

OTOH, if a Sorcerer wanted to pach spells unique to Bards or Warlocks, it might be a bigger potential issue.

Because the wizard already steps on so many toes and has so much versatility, already, perhaps?

Have you actually experienced this in 5e? If so at what level does this hypothetical god-like wizard start to step on everyone's toes... because personally I haven't seen it in actual play... in fact I've seen more complaints about the wizard being slightly under-powered in 5e than him overshadowing everyone... so if you're sure of this I'd like to know at what level to look out for it.

Moonsong has me wondering to what extent this is still the case in 5e, but in 3e, the Wizard and Sorcerer essentially shared a spell list. In 5e, the Wizard has the most unique spells (not shared with any other class) at 33. The Sorcerer has 0.

Worst case, if a variant Sorcerer were getting too big for his britches, cut back his Sorcery points or metamagic options.

Emphasis mine... if only someone had suggested this earlier in the thread... oh that's right, I did.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Two words... diminishing returns.

You're concerned the variant Sorcerer might squat on some of the wizard's 'best' spells? If it were a simple matter of letting any old sorcerer choose any wizard spell, I could see that being a potential issue. If it's a matter of pulling in spells based on a clear concept, less of one. One thing I suggested I might do in a situation like that is allow the Sorcerer spells from other lists, but choose them based on the concept, and reveal them to the player as she levels and the character 'discovers' them.

Then again, 'best spell' is very often situational. The Sorcerer won't be able to respond to a situational need for a spell unless he happens to level before the need for it passes - the Wizard (or Cleric or Druid) can any time there's a chance for a long rest.

Have you actually experienced this in 5e?

Freakishly enough, in spite of exclusively running at quite low levels, yes. I wouldn't read a lot into that experience, though, it includes an elf wizard with extraordinarily lucky stat rolls, for instance.

But, yes, the Wizard, Cleric, & Druid enjoy a lot of versatility, so if another caster knows a few of their spells - either the many already shared, or some poached with DM connivance, they can simply cover other spells. If a standard-issue 'fire sorcerer' suddenly joins and starts burninating things for the party, for instance, they can focus on non-damaging and non-fire-typed damage spells, and not be at all overshadowed or get any bruised toes. Same goes for a less standard-issue Sorcerer in the party. Other classes that don't have that level of flexibility can't shift focus so readily, so they'd be more of a source of concern is a hypothetical variant Sorcerer started poaching in their territory.