D&D 5E Let's Talk About Yawning Portal

[pukunui]

I think what actually happened is that they were working on an Undermountain campaign, and the Yawning Portal stuff got recycled here when they gave up on it.

That's a possibility.

But it's a little dangerous using the Yawning Portal as a framing device.

Exactly!

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=54629]pukunui[/MENTION] I'd assumed that this season of Adventurer's League would cover Undermountain to tie in to the Yawning Portal theme?

If that's not the case, then it's a glaring oversight to place a giant hole that screams "EXPLORE ME" in the starting tavern, only to expect players to pay no attention to the elephant in favor of venturing to a distant dungeon.

 

[Kalshane]

I will say, if you're concerned about PCs being able to come back from the dead too easy while running ToH just limit their supply of diamonds (assuming you're running a one-shot and not using it as part of an ongoing campaign.) No diamonds, no Revivify, Raise Dead, etc.

 

[CapnZapp]

All you have to do is realize that the encounter guidelines in the DMG are not intended for seasoned veterans. They are for new players and new DM's. Seasoned DMs should already know that no guidelines will work for every party.

Therefore, the only value in guidelines is for the new or inexperienced DMs and players.

No, you misunderstand.

I'm talking about WotCs internal guidelines - whatever they're using to create their books.

At some point we need to discuss the elephant in the room: that high-level D&D has never been easier (as in lacking challenge) than for many years.

It's one thing to adjust and tweak encounters. But it's getting ridiculous - above level ~12 or so, encounters are basically unusable as is and needs wholesale replacement.

This is partly because feats, m/c, and items are somehow not taken into account and partly because weak-ass monster design.

If the secret plan is for this to be basic, it's high time to bring out the advanced.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[pukunui]

[MENTION=54629]pukunui[/MENTION] I'd assumed that this season of Adventurer's League would cover Undermountain to tie in to the Yawning Portal theme?

Nope! The six adventures (three regular adventures and three epics) are all "directly tied to an adventure as a sequel, a prequel, or expand on some aspect of it."

See here: http://dndadventurersleague.org/the-yawning-portal/

 

[Darkness]

This isn't the first time you directly ignore ... since you are clearly not listening. ... so your unreasonable suggestion as well as your pretense at being new to the idea doesn't stand unopposed. ...

Keep it civil, please. I know this topic is important to you, but stating your views and expressing "we've been over this before" can easily be done without any belligerency.

 

[Quickleaf]

Nope! The six adventures (three regular adventures and three epics) are all "directly tied to an adventure as a sequel, a prequel, or expand on some aspect of it."

See here: http://dndadventurersleague.org/the-yawning-portal/

....really? Wow. That's quite an elephant in the room. "Yes, untold perils and riches await down that bottomless trench. Going down there? What? Haha, don't be ridiculous. You'll be venturing dozens of miles away to other dungeons."

Was it Raymond Chandler who wrote about the rule of a gun appearing in a mystery novel, something about if it appears at some point it needs to be fired? This feels like the opposite of that advice.

I mean, it's easy enough to take these old adventures and do what you want with them.

But "tavern with a great hole down to adventure that you, of course, won't explore" is an unusual choice for an adventure hook.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, gold is perhaps the biggest weakness of 5e.

There simply isn't any coherent thought as to how much you should get, and what you can use it for.

In short: the game desperately needs a magic item creation and pricing system that a) assumes little or no downtime, and b) is based on actual utility of the item and it's effects, in complete opposition to this rarity-based nonsense

It needs a magic item pricing system of some sort, of that there's no doubt.

Magic item creation - particularly if it's even one of fast, cheap, and easy never mind all three - leads straight down the rather horrible rabbit hole that was 3e. Let's not, shall we?

To keep the game going, magic item creation must be something that's (almost entirely) something active adventurers do not do. Easy to achieve by saying even the most basic potion takes a month to create and anything at all significant can take half a year to a year or even more. So, if you want to have your PC make her own item be prepared to retire her for quite some time.

And what's available to buy at any given time and place needs to be random, as it logically would be in a real functional economy where what's coming on to the market is whatever stuff adventurers have found that they for whatever reason don't need and-or can't afford to keep. In short: in a magic-item market your PC can't and won't always get exactly what she wants.

Lan-"the game also needs rules for constructing strongholds etc., as another wealth sink"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

My CoS DM has been thinking of running Tomb of Horrors next. I raised the concern that, while I do like deadly adventures, I don't like deadly adventures whose deadliness is predicated on being unfair. Chiefly along the lines of what you say above with regard to the DM laying what amounts to "verbal traps" e.g. "You didn't say you checked the doorknob! Make a save!" Some of the old school players in the group objected by saying that was part of the fun for them. I just can't agree.

In that conversation, I stressed what I see as the D&D 5e paradigm as being fair with regard to this sort of thing. You do have to be reasonably specific to find a hidden object (and describing tasks in general). But you also have general tasks you can perform while traveling the dungeon: Stay Alert, Navigate, Draw a Map, Track, Forage, etc. A character can only do one of these things at a time (or some task that is at least as demanding on focus and time such as, say, searching for secret doors). So if you choose to Stay Alert for monsters and traps, you're not also Searching for Secret Doors. And if you're looking for secret doors, you're not also Staying Alert (unless you're a ranger, perhaps). Passive checks may apply in resolving these general tasks. At the same time, the DM should be telegraphing the threats. Some hint should exist in the boxed text with which the players can engage and make deductions about what they face.

You make it sound as if those tasks can't be done more than one at a time; but why not? One person can map (and navigate, these kinda go together), while another searches for secret doors (and traps, searching is searching) and a third and maybe fourth keep alert for threats from elsewhere.

Failing that, slow down. Clear an area of traps (and check for tracks) first, then go back over it and search for secret doors.

So I think the way D&D 5e does things (according to my interpretation) somewhat meets both camps in the middle. You have to say what you're doing. You have to be reasonably specific. But at the same time, the DM is on the hook to telegraph. I haven't read the new version of the module yet, so I hope that my position here is not undermined by how they wrote it. If it leans too closely to the bad old days of the old school dungeon, I may have to bow out of the campaign. I'm all for deadly - but it needs to be fair.

While I kinda disagree with this on a general basis - there's nothing saying the DM has to specifically telegraph anything - I have to more forcefully disagree in the specific case of ToH which is in fact supposed to be the sort of dungeon where if you don't do the exact right thing you'll come out in a coffin; and it's the DM's job to help you do the wrong thing.

That said, it sounds from reading above like maybe it's not as deadly as the original ToH anyway; I haven't seen it yet myself.

Lanefan

 

[Prakriti]

....really? Wow. That's quite an elephant in the room. "Yes, untold perils and riches await down that bottomless trench. Going down there? What? Haha, don't be ridiculous. You'll be venturing dozens of miles away to other dungeons."

The Yawning Portal stuff takes up all of 2 1/2 pages, so it's not really integral to the book. It's more like a possible framing device for the adventures. It's probably best to think of the book as a collection of unrelated, classic adventures updated for 5E. It's up to each DM to decide how to string them together, if at all.

That said, I do think it's possible to use the Yawning Portal as a framing device. You'd just want to give the players a good reason for why Undermountain isn't a suitable adventuring site anymore. Maybe it has nothing left to offer or the tunnels collapsed during the Spellplague, for example.

Overall, my initial impression of the book is favorable -- 4/5 or 5/5.