D&D 5E How valuable is the shield?

This is probably the best example of someone missing the forest through the trees that I've ever seen. Especially since it's the second time in a row you did even after I already said that the numbers don't matter. Your'e getting caught up in trying to find this big mathematical analysis when you don't need to, and in doing so are completely missing the point.
I think that you may have missed their point as well however: In a discussion around D&D5e characters that may consider using a shield, the system may be skewed to reward offense over defense. This pushes emphasising defense into a smaller useful range.

Pushing defense isn't useless, particularly since you're likely to have some harder-hitting characters behind you to deal the damage while you try to soak up attacks. But on the individual basis that you portrayed, the system tends to reward putting resources into offense or balanced setups rather than pure defense.
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
I think it varies by class and build and what the player is going for. Some classes have options that make using a shield less viable. Other class abilities and feats make use of a shield viable.

My group had a paladin with a shield who had the defensive style as his choice, and he would stand next to the rogue and/or the fighter, and let them skewer things while he used his shield to help them out once a round, and would often dodge to absorb some attacks.

Now, many folks would criticize this as "sub-optimal" because the paladin could have been attacking and also could have been adding smite damage on any hits he scored. And that's a valid approach.

But, if they managed to get through the encounter without taking many hits, and without expending other resources, then it seems the better choice, no? A rogue's sneak attack isn't limited by rest or day, and neither is the defensive reaction of the paladin's style, or the fighter's ability to attack. Better to use those resources than ones that are gone until a rest of some sort is taken, no?

But again, this is where things start to get overly analytical. I think that the best way to look at it is that I've seen a paladin with a shield be a very effective part of an effective party. The variables are too many to definitively declare one approach universally better than the other. Removing one encounter and breaking it down simply to numbers without considering the importance of the encounter in the overall adventuring day, the number of encounters, the strength of the party at the start of the encounter, and any number of other contextual elements isn't really all that helpful.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I think that you may have missed their point as well .

I didn't miss their point. I just didn't disagree with it, and didn't feel it was really relevant to the point I was making, so I didn't feel the need to really respond to it. The only point I was making was that if the math shows that you have more resources after combat with defense over offense, then defense is better in that case. There was no need to go into the detailed level of analysis of the examples they used. There are literally infinite possibilities under my umbrella, and it seemed they were getting caught up in the +2/-2 figures I used when those were just for illustrative purposes, not literal purposes.
 

I think that you may have missed their point as well however: In a discussion around D&D5e characters that may consider using a shield, the system may be skewed to reward offense over defense. This pushes emphasising defense into a smaller useful range.

It's actually kind of the opposite. 5E makes increasing offense over a certain threshold quite painful, but increasing defense over that threshold is relatively easy. You can't make a 5th level PC who can kill a Githyanki Knight and two regular Githyanki solo just by optimizing DPR; but you can do so if you optimize for survival. (Example: Mobile Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight with Expeditious Retreat who kites and hides, a defensive strategy, will do better than a GWM Polearm Master Barbarian or a Sorlock. He has more tactical options in more situations. It may be a long and mentally-exhausting fight though*, depending on terrain; i.e. good fun.) Good offense and excellent defense tends to trump super-optimized offense.

* Which makes perfect sense because it's a 12x Deadly fight.

The interesting thing is that defense also turns out to be a suboptimization--it's possible to make a healer so good that burning defensive spells like Hypnotic Pattern, Shield, Fear, etc. is actually inferior to just soaking the damage and healing everybody after combat with a single Extended Aura of Vitality.

On the other hand, the advantage of offensive optimization is that it doesn't really require cooperation or coordination. If you optimize for massive damage, you can prevent even suicidal idiots from dying as quickly as they otherwise would; and you can also save NPCs.

Pushing defense isn't useless, particularly since you're likely to have some harder-hitting characters behind you to deal the damage while you try to soak up attacks. But on the individual basis that you portrayed, the system tends to reward putting resources into offense or balanced setups rather than pure defense.

That depends very much on the scenario.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Also, and I can't believe I forgot to mention this again (I brought it up in another thread), we need to make sure we're not in this mindset of PC vs. monster when thinking about benefits of offense vs. defense. Often, more than one monster is attacking the PC, and that's important when you realize that a +2 shield bonus applies to each of those attacks. So if a +2 bonus to damage is better than a +2 bonus to AC in a one-on-one scenario, it might not be better against multiple opponents and/or opponents with multiple attacks because that bonus is coming into play a lot more often than your bonus to damage does.

But really, what it all comes down to in my opinion, is that the way the game is built currently, there is no clear "winner" build, and anyone can do whatever concept they want without sacrificing being effective. And that's a good thing. Every adventure I've ever played in over the past 35 years has had so many different scenarios where there is opportunity for each PC archetype to have shown value, both in combat and out of combat. Even if you just play combat, there are limitless scenarios where one powerful combination in one battle isn't really effective in another. That's why I am not really a subscriber into the "this is the best build EVAR!" type of things.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Also, and I can't believe I forgot to mention this again (I brought it up in another thread), we need to make sure we're not in this mindset of PC vs. monster when thinking about benefits of offense vs. defense. Often, more than one monster is attacking the PC, and that's important when you realize that a +2 shield bonus applies to each of those attacks. So if a +2 bonus to damage is better than a +2 bonus to AC in a one-on-one scenario, it might not be better against multiple opponents and/or opponents with multiple attacks because that bonus is coming into play a lot more often than your bonus to damage does.

While true, we should also take into account PC and DM actions to avoid this.

Our PC Monk rarely fights against 4 attackers simultaneously. He rarely fights against 2 because with his mobility, he puts himself in situations to fight on the fringes of combat. But his +2 short sword is used twice per round and he also gets one or two attacks with his bonus action (i.e. if the Cleric casts Bless, she always includes the 4 attacks per round Monk). This is partially under the control of the PCs.

Our PC Wild Shaped Druid and Barbarian go straight into the heart of combat and soak up a lot of attacks per round, neither one of them using a shield.

Our PC Cleric with a shield tries to get in range of 3 or 4 attackers with Spirit Guardians up and using GreenFlame Blade to try to damage two foes if she hits (and with boosted Aid and Death Ward up to keep her alive), but the NPCs sometimes avoid her (other times, they swarm her, it all depends).

So while what you say is technically true and sounds correct on paper, it is one of those things that tend to even out in the long run in actual game play. The PCs with shields (and often better armor) are sometimes avoided by the NPCs (i.e. the DM) looking for squishier prey.

In my experience, it is difficult for the high AC shield Paladins and such to tank in 5E without taking the sentinel feat (and even with it). They just are not sticky enough to force the NPCs to hang around. As DM, I have on multiple occasions had an NPC leader order 3 or more foes around a plate mail and shield PC to go off and attack other PCs instead. The first NPC takes an OA and they then go hunt down a Rogue or Wizard or some such. Intelligent foes should try to avoid "the shield bonus of a PC gets used against multiple attacks per round" syndrome whenever appropriate. Unintelligent foes, not so much.

If on the other hand, your DM just has the first 4 foes go attack the Paladin with Shield in the front row nearly every fight, then what you say here is more true. Our fights tend to be spread out a bit more than that (and at the moment, we only have one PC out of six with a shield).

The utility of a shield is dependent on a lot more variables than the number of attacks per round that the monsters in a given encounter might be able to throw against it. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of plate and shield PCs go unconscious when a DM swarms then and the dice are hot. A shield can only help so much.


The entire "lack of stickiness in 5E" concept is one of the reasons that I designed my current Barbarian/Wizard to use GWM. Not just to do a lot of damage (although that is the main reason), but also to encourage foes to attack my PC. My original design did use sword and board. But, a Barbarian with a shield and a one handed weapon is not enough of a threat to encourage NPCs to attack him instead of someone else. He's too tanky (and even moreso subconsciously by the DM who knows that the NPCs are only doing half damage).

But really, what it all comes down to in my opinion, is that the way the game is built currently, there is no clear "winner" build, and anyone can do whatever concept they want without sacrificing being effective. And that's a good thing. Every adventure I've ever played in over the past 35 years has had so many different scenarios where there is opportunity for each PC archetype to have shown value, both in combat and out of combat. Even if you just play combat, there are limitless scenarios where one powerful combination in one battle isn't really effective in another. That's why I am not really a subscriber into the "this is the best build EVAR!" type of things.

Agreed.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
It's actually kind of the opposite. 5E makes increasing offense over a certain threshold quite painful, but increasing defense over that threshold is relatively easy. You can't make a 5th level PC who can kill a Githyanki Knight and two regular Githyanki solo just by optimizing DPR; but you can do so if you optimize for survival. (Example: Mobile Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight with Expeditious Retreat who kites and hides, a defensive strategy, will do better than a GWM Polearm Master Barbarian or a Sorlock. He has more tactical options in more situations. It may be a long and mentally-exhausting fight though*, depending on terrain; i.e. good fun.) Good offense and excellent defense tends to trump super-optimized offense.

* Which makes perfect sense because it's a 12x Deadly fight.

A 5th level Eldritch Knight cannot learn Expeditious Retreat. Your entire premise is faulty to begin with (or are you going to give the Eldritch Knight a scroll of Expeditious Retreat? :lol:). Let's say that you do give him a scroll. I still find these "super perfect scenarios" amusing. Assuming that the DM starts the encounter at a reasonable 50 or 60 feet apart instead of 600 out in the dead open where the Knight can just fire arrows:


If the Eldritch Knight misses his saving throw vs. the Githyanki Knight's Telekinesis, he is 30 feet in the air, then falls 30 feet as the Githyanki stops concentrating on the spell, the GK moves closer and the other two Githyanki Misty Step/Move over and get 4 advantaged attacks against prone. So far, the Eldritch Knight has typically taken 42 of his 50 hit points (assuming 2 advantaged hits +4 vs. AC 18, more with 3+ attacks hitting and/or one or more criticals) and is on the ground prone. He could use a Shield spell to prevent some of this damage, but now he has used up 1 out of his 3 spells. Getting up on his turn uses up half of his movement and he has had to make 1+ Concentration saves for his Expeditious Retreat so far.

a) If he disengages (being variant human with two feats, he can only move 30), he gets 45 feet away (assuming that he did not lose Expeditious Retreat). The 2 GIthyanki Knights Misty Step/Move and reach him easy and still attack.

b) If he dodges, he gets up to 45 feet away and both of them get a disadvantaged OA attacks (or even non-disadvantaged grapples, or shoves to knock him prone). If he does manage to get away, they can still move in and try to grapple him (neither dodge nor Shield affects grapple). The Githyanki Knight moves in as well and depending on range, can grapple or attack this round. All in all, the Eldritch Knight is probably screwed unless he gets real lucky.

c) If he attacks a Githyanki with a melee weapon to get his mobility going, he is again 15 or 45 feet away and the Githyanki move in and again eventually kick his butt.

d) If he casts Fog Cloud, he can possibly get away (assuming that his Expeditious Retreat is still up). Oh wait. A 5th level Eldritch Knight cannot learn Fog Cloud either. He has no spell except Shield that can really help him.

Once they are in melee range, it would be rare for him to manage to do real damage against them with his Sharpshooter feat. Using a melee weapon, it would take him 25+ rounds to wipe them out. In the meantime, it takes them at most 4 rounds to wipe him out (3 rounds of Shield, 6 attacks no Shield on round 4). He could try to get 90 feet away by just fleeing, but with 3 OAs against him, the odds of him being successful are slim to none.


If he makes the save versus the Telekinesis and gets away, the Githyanki move behind total cover and wait to ambush his butt. There are very few scenarios where the Githyanki are "out in the open, thousands of feet away from any cover, or buildings, or trees, or rocks". The player rarely can control that. Even if they were, push comes to shove, they Plane Shift away and come back to fight another day. There is no way in my game that this PC would ever win such a fight. The foes have too many good options, they have great ability scores, and I wouldn't run them like Goblins.


And actually as DM, I would not start out the fight with Telekinesis. The Githyanki would just go in and attack and if the Eldritch Knight flees, I would have the Githyanki TK his butt back as close as possible to the NPCs, 10 feet into the air (so that he still falls and is still prone).


Yes, on paper, these types of kiting PCs sound wonderful (and actually can work in MMORPGs where monsters can hang out in the middle of a field). In actual D&D games with good DMs, kiting PCs die solo versus powerful/intelligent foes, just like every other PC.

And, of course, the game is typically played with a group of PCs, not solo. That's why PCs survive battles, not because defense trumps offense.


Defense does not typically win over offense and your example here does not prove that it does. It proves that a given poster can conceive of a "shoot fish in a barrel" scenario, but that doesn't mean that it actually happens in games.
 

A 5th level Eldritch Knight cannot learn Expeditious Retreat. Your entire premise is faulty to begin with (or are you going to give the Eldritch Knight a scroll of Expeditious Retreat?

What? You couldn't even be bothered to read a PHB before shooting off your mouth?

An Eldritch Knight can learn Expeditious Retreat as early as 3rd level.

I'm not even going to bother responding to your theorycrafted scenario point by point. At most, all you're doing is establishing that you can construct a scenario where the 12x Deadly fight will probably kill the PC (if the fight starts at close range and the PC loses initiative and fails his Strength check), which isn't surprising and isn't germane to the discussion. No claim was made that in every scenario the 5th level defense-capable PC will always win. But his odds are vastly better, and he is more tactically flexible, than the offensive-focused one.

Edit: okay, I can't help myself.

If he disengages (being variant human with two feats, he can only move 30)
What is this even in reference to? If he disengages after getting up from being prone, he gets 20' of movement because he's Mobile, or 60' if he uses Expeditious Retreat to bonus action Dash, but in no case is it 30'.

That is the third factual error I've spotted in that post. (Expeditious Retreat, Telekinesis being resisted by an ability check instead of a save, and calculating movement incorrectly.) Then there are the logical errors (assuming that there's no middle ground between an ambush at 60' and "thousands of feet" of empty terrain; forgetting that Action Surge exists; forgetting that githyanki retreating behind total cover simply enables the EK to hide as was explicitly mentioned originally as part of his defensive strategy--cat-and-mouse is "mentally exhausting" which leads to the "good fun" that was mentioned previously).

At this point I doubt you even really understand my point. You seem to be fighting a strawman made out of your own mistakes and misapprehensions. If you'd just state what it is, I can save us both a lot of time and say, "No, I don't believe that. You're right, that straw man is false." E.g. "You're right, the Mobile feat does not let 1st level PCs kill the Tarrasque." (I exaggerate slightly for effect; but I don't think I'm exaggerating all that much. I think you think I believe something truly ridiculous or you wouldn't have written that last post the way you did.)
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
What? You couldn't even be bothered to read a PHB before shooting off your mouth?

An Eldritch Knight can learn Expeditious Retreat as early as 3rd level.

Yup. ONLY at third level (until level 8). I skimmed through that. My bad.

I'm not even going to bother responding to your theorycrafted scenario point by point. At most, all you're doing is establishing that you can construct a scenario where the 12x Deadly fight will probably kill the PC (if the fight starts at close range and the PC loses initiative and fails his Strength check), which isn't surprising and isn't germane to the discussion. No claim was made that in every scenario the 5th level defense-capable PC will always win. But his odds are vastly better, and he is more tactically flexible, than the offensive-focused one.

Edit: okay, I can't help myself.

What is this even in reference to? If he disengages after getting up from being prone, he gets 20' of movement because he's Mobile, or 60' if he uses Expeditious Retreat to bonus action Dash, but in no case is it 30'.

That is the third factual error I've spotted in that post. (Expeditious Retreat, Telekinesis being resisted by an ability check instead of a save, and calculating movement incorrectly.)

And?

It doesn't change much. Sure, he can get 80 feet away in a given round as long as he can keep ER up and is not knocked prone or grabbed or TKed (120 if he risks OA attacks). If he gets too far away, the NPCs just go wait and ambush him.

On the other hand, the Githyanki could put him in the TK grab, hold him 5 feet off the ground where the other two foes can attack him, and he couldn't move at all. Every round, the Githyanki tries to put him back into the TK grab if he ever gets out. And to get out, he uses up part or all of his attack action.


Yes, I do not know every single rule for specialized PCs off the top of my head, but if I were DMing this PC and I did prep such a battle, I would be much more familiar with these rules. This changes little. He would still get his ass handed to him in any scenario where he doesn't start outside of normal encounter start ranges.

Yes, he has a lot of mobility options and yes there are a few scenarios where he can survive by running and kiting.


But you are totally missing the point. It's not that you cannot create a PC that might be able to survive in such a situation, it's that such a PC is so focused on defense and survival that he is subpar in combat to most other builds (and no matter what build you make, the DM can p--s in your corn flakes). Defense infrequently trumps offense.


D&D is not played in an MMO solo player vacuum. It is played with a group of players with PCs. With a typically 4 or 5 party group, this guy hanging in the back kiting means that other PCs are getting attacked instead. Sure, he is personally defensive (mostly because he is hanging back). But he doesn't protect his fellow PCs much. He doesn't heal them. He doesn't take hits for them. And if he is up and taking hits, he is typically not using either of his two feats.

He shifts enemy attacks to the other PCs and he does this as a Fighter. Other PCs that hang back like Mages and Lore Bards and such do control, or more damage, or bring in pets, or something. They shift action economy. This guy just shoots a bow and might manage 15 or so points of damage (2 normal hits or 1 -5/+10) in a given round. The GMW Fighter typically manages more than that as does the Sharpshooter Ranger (typically 5 to 7 more points of damage). This guy is not really that impressive from a party perspective giving that he has two feats.

Even a Valor Bard could do nearly as much damage per round, but brings much more to the party (and Valor Bards are considered a little wimpy until level 10 with Swift Quiver). One could even be a Valor Bard that moves in, knocks a foe down, giving the other melee PCs advantage and getting advantage himself on an attack (and giving disadvantage to your ranged PC) and bring more to the table.

The Sharpshooter Ranger also hangs back, but he brings a lot more to the table. He does a lot more damage (Hunter's Mark and usually Colossus Slayer), he brings scouting and more skills to the party, and he has one area affect spell at level 5 and minor healing.

No doubt. This PC you describe is awesome at long range kiting. But kiting might be 5% of all encounters at most tables.

Most encounters are with a group of PCs fighting a group of NPCs in melee and not at long range (otherwise, the melee PC players would feel useless) and this particular PC would usually end up helping out less than a simple Champion melee fighter. He does bring two minor things to the table. He can chase down a foe that is trying to run away. And one or two times a day, he can go in solo against a tough foe and soak up some attacks with a Shield spell. Other than that, he actually has less utility than most other Fighters. He's basically a suppar warrior PC action economy-wise. And unlike many other class builds, he doesn't bring much in the way of skills or other abilities to the party either.


That's what happens when somebody puts too many eggs in one basket. This guy is super defensive and mobile, but he's not that great of a party PC. He's meh. Not good. Not bad. But definitely not a team player. Creating a warrior PC designed to attack from range and avoid melee means that someone else in the group is usually taking more attacks. And that isn't necessarily a terrible thing. Many players play for the concept and are more concerned with roleplaying than combat. But from a combat perspective, this guy is meh. Many other builds bring more to the table.


In other words, you CAN create a PC that is super mobile and hangs back with ranged attacks. But when you do so, you typically weaken the overall effectiveness of the party as a whole (only talking combat here). Those few extra attacks that other PCs are soaking up means more frequent short rests, more healing spells used, possibly even unconscious PCs which shifts action economy, etc. All in all, more party resources expended while this guy sits out each short rest not using up many of his hit dice because he hangs back and rarely gets attacked. Sure, he can move up. But even then, he is not as good at fighting in melee as other melee built fighters or monks or barbarians or paladins. They may be +1/+1 to hit and damage over him, they might have a shield already prepared (he typically does not), they tend to do more damage per attack and have Maneuvers or some other melee advantage, and/or they might have a feat that improves their melee. He has the option to go into melee, but he averages less damage then the Cleric who goes into melee with Spiritual Guardians up. Many if not most melee builds are better.

On the other hand, creating a PC that is super offensive tends to help a party more. Foes fall quicker before him and action economy shifts in the party's direction faster. An Eldritch Knight with GWM would typically help out a party more than the PC you proposed and would still have room for another feat or an 18 Str (or other racial abilities).

Offense typically trumps defense.


PS. In a TPK or near TPK situation, your EK would probably survive and might be able to drive off (or lead away) remaining foes in large combat areas such that maybe a few of the other PCs might make their death saving throws and survive as well. He is not totally useless, his strengths are just rarely as useful as the strengths of many other PC builds. TPKs don't usually happen.

This is not much different than the high AC fighter discussions. Yeah, someone could make a PC with super high AC. The problem is that while doing that, their PC isn't typically doing a lot of damage or control, and NPCs avoid him to attack other PCs which actually hurts the party resource-wise overall. Many NPCs tend to attack PCs that are doing nasty stuff. They focus on Wizards/Bards/Sorcerers and Rogues and Clerics with Spiritual Guardians up. They typically do not focus on PC tanks (unless the tank is also doing a lot of nasty stuff). At least IME.


As a simple example, the Eldritch Knight is hanging back shooting arrows. A monster gets in his face. He swings his sword twice and moves away. The monster decides to go fight the Wizard instead. Oops. Typically, a fighter would be better off staying put and protecting the other PCs. In this case, if the EK stays put, it takes him longer to take out his foe than another more balanced or offensively build fighter, and his defensive abilities are actually no better than another fighter (i.e. his AC is usually the same or lower). Even his hit points might be lower (since he probably put quite a few build points into both Dex and Str in order to be able to be semi-effective in both melee and ranged attacks, he has fewer build points for Con).


You are the one who made the claim that it was the opposite of what Cap'n Kobold said. Err, no. Offense typically trumps. Building for defense just means that attacks shift more often to the other PCs. And the PC you made isn't really that defensive. He's mobile and he sometimes has the option of doing decent damage. The only really defensive thing about him is that he doesn't take an OA if he melee attacks a foe and moves away. Other than that, he is actually less defensive then most fighters (lower AC and/or lower hit points in many cases). Unless you consider him hanging in the back as part of his defensive ability. Some players think that way. They rarely get attacked, so they are defensive. Meh. A good DM makes sure that this is not always the case.
 


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