D&D 5E First TPK Players got frustrated

[Bradley Hindman]

OK, and what if capture is not inevitable.

I think we are actually in agreement. I believe that the DM should never have the outcome of a conflict pre-ordained. However, if the DM is deadset on ignoring this advice, please don't make me play through the script. Just tell me the outcome and we can start playing at a point where my decisions matter.

 

[Li Shenron]

Hi! So my players and I had a game last night and as the title says there was a TPK. This happened because the players went into a major battle with a flawed strategy that was not going to (and did not) work and they left major sections of the dungeon filled with enemies.

So here is the story, they essentially went into this dungeon to save their friend from being used in this draconic ritual. So they go through the dungeon skipping some rooms along the way (mostly be accident, but a few on purpose) that we full of kobolds. Once they made it to the final room they looked in through the key hole and formed a plan. This plan did not work. Once they decided to run they found out that they couldn't as the Kobolds who they had left alive barricaded the door. This is when they all died.

So my players first said that they felt that I was being unfair. So I told them that they were not necessarily dead but just unconsious and captured by the kobolds, as I felt bad for making the combat very difficult. This gave them the idea that I had planned this all along as a plot twist (eventhough I didn't) which made them annoyed.

Overall this has made me regret letting them keep their characters alive. What do you think, was I being to harsh in combat? Should I have let them keep their characthers?

Thanks in advance! Leave comments below.

Well, told from your perspective it sounds like we should all blame on the players...

...but before doing that I want to know, what do YOU think the players should have done?

Just sayin', but sometimes we DM design a story with one specific "solution" in mind, and become convinced that any other idea is a mistake. But are you sure that your solution was better?

Were you expecting the PCs take one room at a time, killing all kobolds in each room then move to the next; the PCs reach the final room with enough resources to beat the BBEG. Or did you expect the PCs take out the kobolds in a few rooms, retire to take a rest and replenish resources, then rinse and repeat?

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I think we are actually in agreement. I believe that the DM should never have the outcome of a conflict pre-ordained. However, if the DM is deadset on ignoring this advice, please don't make me play through the script. Just tell me the outcome and we can start playing at a point where my decisions matter.

That's what I thought (and hoped). Just wanted to make sure!

There is a "recommendation" that I see frequently online that you should never capture the players. "It's not fun to be captured, and losing all of your stuff is not fun, and not winning is not fun," etc.

 

[Satyrn]

I often see the complaint "Why dont my Players ever have their Characters run from battle" but this is the first time I have seen them try to run but the DM wont let them.

This is, I think, why players often don't consider fleeing an option. They've played with DMs who block it too completely.

I hope the OP hasn't so thoroughly taught his players that lesson that they won't consider fleeing again. It might take telling them that he made a DMing mistake that he's learned from going forward.

Perhaps next time having the kobolds in the midst of barricading the door, or just standing shoulder to shoulder with spears pointed forward - something less complete than a dead end.

 

[Ninja-radish]

As a DM myself, I have some issues/questions about this, some of which I see have already been asked.

1. If the PCs bypassed the rooms full of Kobolds, how did the Kobolds know they were there?

2. If the kobolds were just sitting in their rooms, how did they communicate with the kobolds in the other rooms to come up with their plan to kill the PCs?

3. How did the PCs not have a chance to hear them barricading a door? That's a pretty loud activity.

You have to remember as a DM you have the power to kill off the PCs anytime you want. You can just have an Adult Red Dragon attack your level 1 PCs and ensure a TPK. It's not exactly a challenge. The challenge is to figure out ways to roll with what the party is doing and keep the story going.

 

[Staccat0]

Was there an opportunity for them to try to break the door down or circumvent it?

 

[Lehrbuch]

It's a good policy to telegraph potential threats so the players are always making informed decisions. That way if something goes wrong, they can look back and say "Well, I guess we knew what we were leaving behind us and that was a risk we should have thought twice about."...

Agree.

Also, in this case, for what it is worth, I would have tried to encourage the players to think of strategies to break down the kobold barricade and fight their way out. It seems like the players are trying to run away to avoid a TPK (which is very sensible). So, as DM while you don't need to make running away trivial, you don't want to definitively stop the PCs either. Stopping the players taking actions like this is a good way to train the players into not planning and not doing anything except blindly attacking: if plans fail, why plan?

However, what is done is done. As others have suggested I think the best thing now is to be honest with the players. Admit it was a balls up. Ask them if they want to:

• continue from a point of capture, or
• replay from the barricade again, giving them a better chance to escape, or
• live with the TPK and make up new characters.

 

[Lehrbuch]

Perhaps next time having the kobolds in the midst of barricading the door, or just standing shoulder to shoulder with spears pointed forward - something less complete than a dead end.

Agree.

It was realistic and, I think, a good DM decision to have the kobolds attempt to barricade the PCs in.

However, it was a DM mistake to make the kobolds' barricade attempt effective.

 

[hastur_nz]

Totally agree with many others here - sounds like we have a fairly new set of people, playing low level PC's, and when the group finally decided they were in over their head and tried to escape, they got screwed over. At least that's most likely how the players would have felt, which is the important thing. Most players would have made their own TPK, i.e. never tried to escape just kept rolling until they all dropped.

Personally, as a player, escaping from capture is about my least favourite thing, it just feel contrived because in reality you have to escape, otherwise why bother? I've played through Out of the Abyss, and the start of that really wasn't much fun - having no equipment, various other impediments, and miraculously escaping after a frustrating time trying to come up with escape plans, it just feels pre-ordained. I was DM or a Player in Against the Slave Lords once, and again I don't recall the capture and escape part being very memorable there, either.

You can't replay it, what's done is done.

If you did have your time again, I'd say just give the players enough information to make good decisions, and if they make a decent decision, especially one like "run away!", try and let them succeed. By all means "play to win" in combat, but don't set things up to the point where the players can box themselves into a dead end; at low levels, PC's die easily, so err on the side of making things easier, you can always make it tougher later.

For now, I'd say just admit you made escape too tough, and let the players choose between Escape vs New PC's. No doubt if they get new PC's, they will approach the dungeon differently, and if they do run away again, for goodness sake give them plenty of chances for that to succeed. Who knows, maybe their new PC's might find their old ones as captives, and that's how they escape...

 

[Lehrbuch]

There is a "recommendation" that I see frequently online that you should never capture the players. "It's not fun to be captured, and losing all of your stuff is not fun, and not winning is not fun," etc.

On the other hand, "escaping and regaining your stuff and kicking arse" is Fun and Winning. However, it does require the players (and DM) to have the maturity and, perhaps, experience to realise that this is an Adventure Opportunity rather than seeing it as a kind-of-slow-motion-TPK.

Also, "escaping and regaining your stuff" is definitely something that is only Fun when it is a rare event.