• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Pre-Order DLC comes to D&D with D&D Beyond and Xanathar's Guide to Everything pre-order

Dualazi

First Post
that's ridiculous
thing about being an adult is making your own choices, if a person dislikes likes preorders, no biggy don't preorder.
but if they choose to preorder, no one made them do it
if hype train is to strong for them to resist and pre orders are making them buy things against there will, then they probably should not be allowed to make decisions about money.

Nothing ridiculous about it, it's indefensibly anti-consumer by directly encouraging poor buying practices with the implication or statement that you will be denied content for not doing so. If you saw a listing for an apartment, that would throw in a free toaster if you didn't come do a walk-through, would you still say "oh, it was their choice to pre-order"? Same concept here, and we have huge precedent in how bad it can get when consumers permit and engender those practices, for example:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insert...der-bonus-structure-of-all-time/#702661163d37

Or you can highlight more well known incidents, like No Man's Sky. Pre-orders are garbage, and locking content to them only more so. Also, people being good with their money or not is irrelevant, besides being impossible to control it leads down the path of having no restrictions on company actions under the guise of caveat emptor.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Nothing ridiculous about it, it's indefensibly anti-consumer by directly encouraging poor buying practices with the implication or statement that you will be denied content for not doing so. If you saw a listing for an apartment, that would throw in a free toaster if you didn't come do a walk-through, would you still say "oh, it was their choice to pre-order"? Same concept here, and we have huge precedent in how bad it can get when consumers permit and engender those practices, for example:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insert...der-bonus-structure-of-all-time/#702661163d37

Or you can highlight more well known incidents, like No Man's Sky. Pre-orders are garbage, and locking content to them only more so. Also, people being good with their money or not is irrelevant, besides being impossible to control it leads down the path of having no restrictions on company actions under the guise of caveat emptor.

Your "example" link is an opinion piece. Very convincing.

Look, you can hate pre-order, you can even have good reasons for disliking pre-order, but you cannot blanket call all pre-ordering objectively bad. Pre-orders strongly help digital delivery predict and mitigate bandwidth issues on release day. And, at this point, with many games having advanced review copies out and beta-test releases, there's plenty of information on the quality and content of the product prior to release. This even holds with Xanthar's, as the amount of information on content and even portions of that content already released for preview is pretty darn high. If you don't already have a decent idea of whether or not you're interested in Xanthar's, you're not the market they're pre-selling to.

And, for all of the bad games that offered pre-order incentives, there are other good games that did the same thing and had no problems. You're engaging in confirmation bias in that you're only seeing the bad outcomes that support your opinion and totally ignoring the good ones that don't.
 

Dualazi

First Post
Your "example" link is an opinion piece. Very convincing.

Look, you can hate pre-order, you can even have good reasons for disliking pre-order, but you cannot blanket call all pre-ordering objectively bad. Pre-orders strongly help digital delivery predict and mitigate bandwidth issues on release day. And, at this point, with many games having advanced review copies out and beta-test releases, there's plenty of information on the quality and content of the product prior to release. This even holds with Xanthar's, as the amount of information on content and even portions of that content already released for preview is pretty darn high. If you don't already have a decent idea of whether or not you're interested in Xanthar's, you're not the market they're pre-selling to.

And, for all of the bad games that offered pre-order incentives, there are other good games that did the same thing and had no problems. You're engaging in confirmation bias in that you're only seeing the bad outcomes that support your opinion and totally ignoring the good ones that don't.

Alright, here's the actual fallout http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/10...ial-deus-ex-mankind-divided-pre-order-program nothing 'opinionated' there, simply the fact that this attempt was so particularly egregious that even video game fans were no willing to stomach it. We're seeing a slightly different but still abusive practice play out at this very moment with NBA 2k18, where portions of the game have now been hidden behind microtransactions in an otherwise full price game. Any time you give the industry as a whole the chance to exploit the consumer they will, without fail.

Secondly, I can think of no games, not even one, that has "prepared" for launch day as a result of pre-orders. This includes industry giants like Blizzard which saw their entire battle.net system crumble back when D3 was released, so I am incredibly suspicious of this claim. The more pertinent concerns from the company are that most games have a very short window for most of their sales, and pre-orders allow them to proactively extend that in addition to the other perks of the practice.

As for Xanathar's itself, I disagree. Much of what we've been given is developers talking about it but not actually showing us hard numbers. While this is expected, since doing so would lower the value of the book itself, it does mean that we really have no clue if the cavalier is good or not, for example. Until we have critics/reviewers actually covering the content in full, there's still a heightened level of uncertainty regarding the value of the product. It certainly wouldn't be the first product we hoped was good but ended up disappointing.

Lastly, there's no such thing as a 'good' pre-order incentive, merely a scale of how detrimental it is. The core premise of my argument is that buying a product before you know its quality is a bad idea as a consumer. That statement doesn't really change no matter what is offered or how it is offered, because it will always be entrenched in the idea of denying customers information.

Look at the example we're arguing over right now; they're tempting you to buy a book you don't know is good on the basis of 16 homebrew feats of indeterminate quality that are almost certainly AL illegal. If you wait for the book to be out and it gets rave reviews, are you going to weep over the missing feats? If the book turns out to be crap, are those feats going to justify the money spent on a sub-par product?
 

Look at the example we're arguing over right now; they're tempting you to buy a book you don't know is good on the basis of 16 homebrew feats of indeterminate quality that are almost certainly AL illegal. If you wait for the book to be out and it gets rave reviews, are you going to weep over the missing feats? If the book turns out to be crap, are those feats going to justify the money spent on a sub-par product?

Well, actually...

1) The feats are a preview of their homebrew feat system, so, like other homebrew, they will likely be available for free to all subscribers eventually. (The feats will not be AL legal. They have already said that.)

2) There is also the character sheet customizations. They haven't gone into a lot of detail on that, but in the developers have talked about customizations being generally available, so like the feats, it's most likely just early access.

3) Alpha test early access to the mobile app. Yet again, it's just early access to something everyone can access for free later.

Personally, as soon as I read about it, I pre-ordered. I don't care about #1 and #2, but #3 seemed interesting. But mostly, I just knew I was going to buy it anyway. So it was the same cost to me either way. I buy all sorts of books and products without waiting for reviews all the time. Some things I might be iffy about and wait for reviews, but many, especially given how much I have liked their past work, I trust them and will buy it day one. So why not pre-order?

I am a subscriber at Paizo. They actually have larger financial incentives for subscribing, but I don't recall wailing and gnashing of teeth over their abusive business models.

I'm going to see the new Blade Runner movie this weekend. I don't need to read reviews, it seems interesting enough and I trust those involved enough that the investment in time and money is worth the risk. Same for every Marvel movie for me. When Star Wars: The Last Jedi comes out, I already know I will see it. Plus I will actually actively avoid all trailers and reviews as much as possible.

I eat at restaurants without reading reviews. Buy clothes without reading reviews. Heck, I buy all sorts of products online without even being able to *see or touch* the product in person. That doesn't make me a bad consumer, just one that has better things to do than read reviews on every single dollar I spend. Some things I am either unsure about or it is worth my time to research, other things aren't worth it to me to wait and research. I just know I want to buy them. Pre-ordering might make it more apparent, but that's really been how it's worked since... well... commerce was invented ages ago. There's nothing new here.
 

ddaley

Explorer
Well, actually...

1) The feats are a preview of their homebrew feat system, so, like other homebrew, they will likely be available for free to all subscribers eventually. (The feats will not be AL legal. They have already said that.)

2) There is also the character sheet customizations. They haven't gone into a lot of detail on that, but in the developers have talked about customizations being generally available, so like the feats, it's most likely just early access.

3) Alpha test early access to the mobile app. Yet again, it's just early access to something everyone can access for free later.

Personally, as soon as I read about it, I pre-ordered. I don't care about #1 and #2, but #3 seemed interesting. But mostly, I just knew I was going to buy it anyway. So it was the same cost to me either way. I buy all sorts of books and products without waiting for reviews all the time. Some things I might be iffy about and wait for reviews, but many, especially given how much I have liked their past work, I trust them and will buy it day one. So why not pre-order?

I am a subscriber at Paizo. They actually have larger financial incentives for subscribing, but I don't recall wailing and gnashing of teeth over their abusive business models.

I'm going to see the new Blade Runner movie this weekend. I don't need to read reviews, it seems interesting enough and I trust those involved enough that the investment in time and money is worth the risk. Same for every Marvel movie for me. When Star Wars: The Last Jedi comes out, I already know I will see it. Plus I will actually actively avoid all trailers and reviews as much as possible.

I eat at restaurants without reading reviews. Buy clothes without reading reviews. Heck, I buy all sorts of products online without even being able to *see or touch* the product in person. That doesn't make me a bad consumer, just one that has better things to do than read reviews on every single dollar I spend. Some things I am either unsure about or it is worth my time to research, other things aren't worth it to me to wait and research. I just know I want to buy them. Pre-ordering might make it more apparent, but that's really been how it's worked since... well... commerce was invented ages ago. There's nothing new here.

Some of these people seem to stress way too much over a $30 book. Like you, I was going to purchase this book regardless, so why not pre-order. In fact, I had already pre-ordered 2 physical copies from Amazon. So, I am willing to "risk" $90 on this product.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Alright, here's the actual fallout http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/10...ial-deus-ex-mankind-divided-pre-order-program nothing 'opinionated' there, simply the fact that this attempt was so particularly egregious that even video game fans were no willing to stomach it. We're seeing a slightly different but still abusive practice play out at this very moment with NBA 2k18, where portions of the game have now been hidden behind microtransactions in an otherwise full price game. Any time you give the industry as a whole the chance to exploit the consumer they will, without fail.
A failed pre-order scheme doesn't prove the practice is bad, just that that scheme was poorly implemented and/or planned. The bit about microtransactions in NBA 2k18, while I agree is very annoying and just one reason I avoid EA sports titles, is entirely orthogonal to your argument about pre-orders. If we can bring in any bad behavior and say that it supports our argument about this specific bad behavior then every bad behavior becomes proof. You could next claim that bank robberies are an indictment of pre-orders because offering incentives to open accounts just encourages bank robbers angry they don't have enough money to get the free stuff by opening accounts. It's silly.

Secondly, I can think of no games, not even one, that has "prepared" for launch day as a result of pre-orders. This includes industry giants like Blizzard which saw their entire battle.net system crumble back when D3 was released, so I am incredibly suspicious of this claim. The more pertinent concerns from the company are that most games have a very short window for most of their sales, and pre-orders allow them to proactively extend that in addition to the other perks of the practice.
I can trivially disprove this. Bungie, with Destiny 2 pre-orders, began downloading files to pre-order customers 2 weeks early and in measured packages. I didn't have to download a single thing on launch day because everything was already pre-installed, a move that meant that Bungie (or more precisely, their parent company) reduced load on their download infrastructure on launch day. Because my son would have bought it on launch day if he couldn't pre-order it and then sat there waiting for downloads.

Steam does this as well. And if you've never noticed a slowdown of download speeds during rush at open for digitally delivered games (or just for release day patches), then you're incredibly lucky or very unobservant.

As for Xanathar's itself, I disagree. Much of what we've been given is developers talking about it but not actually showing us hard numbers. While this is expected, since doing so would lower the value of the book itself, it does mean that we really have no clue if the cavalier is good or not, for example. Until we have critics/reviewers actually covering the content in full, there's still a heightened level of uncertainty regarding the value of the product. It certainly wouldn't be the first product we hoped was good but ended up disappointing.
There are whole class previews out there now. They handed some out for a few cons. Yeah, sure, you don't have exact numbers for everything, but we have an extensive history with the design envelope from UA and previous releases and we have concrete examples of said design from Xanthar's, and THEN we have the developer information. This it pretty much akin to a demo level and some gameplay video. If you don't have enough information, that's fine, everyone has a different threshold and yours seems pegged to 'must be able to see the whole product', but you can't claim there isn't a large amount of information already out there on Xanthar's.

Lastly, there's no such thing as a 'good' pre-order incentive, merely a scale of how detrimental it is. The core premise of my argument is that buying a product before you know its quality is a bad idea as a consumer. That statement doesn't really change no matter what is offered or how it is offered, because it will always be entrenched in the idea of denying customers information.
And we're back to pure opinion. To bring up Destiny 2, for my son, he was very happy with the pre-order bennies he got. He purchased the package that includes the season pass at a discounted price and also some limited-time exclusive cosmetics and weapons. These items are limted to pre-purchase for a few months and then go full access. i've seen them and they're interesting but not overpowered or significant to gameplay. None of the items are in the current PvP meta. But he likes them and, since he was buying at first availability to play with his friends doing the same, he's tickled pink to have a few things thrown his way for something he'd have pre-ordered without bennies. And I'm happy he saved a few bucks on the season pass.

For the record, he's in high school and did this with his own money.

Look at the example we're arguing over right now; they're tempting you to buy a book you don't know is good on the basis of 16 homebrew feats of indeterminate quality that are almost certainly AL illegal. If you wait for the book to be out and it gets rave reviews, are you going to weep over the missing feats? If the book turns out to be crap, are those feats going to justify the money spent on a sub-par product?
What incredibly odd questions. There's some strange space your in to think that those questions get to the nub of this issue rather than just reaffirming your already clearly stated biases and assumptions. Again, pre-ordering is a risk/reward analysis. You, obviously, heavily weight the risks, and, for some products, i do as well. I don't kickstart, for instance, except in rare cases where I either have great faith in the product manufacturer or I don't care about the product. Example of the former is CMON kickstarters, where I'm buying the minis and not the game and the minis have always been high quality, and the latter the Reading Rainbow kickstarter, where I wanted to give Lavar money even though I was never gonig to consume the product. For video games, I preorder a select few titles, but that's more because I'm perfectly happy to wait a year or two and pick up my video games at a discount - I don't usually get much from getting in early. Exceptions here are Civ games and Fallout games, where I trust the execution enough to want it have it as soon as it's out. And I missed both of the most recent release in both series because I didn't have time at release to justify the expense. But had I the time I'd have pre-ordered regardless of the benefits.

For Xanthar's, I've already bought my print version. So, I've already preordered. I'm not on DDB, but if that was my content consumption vehicle of choice, I'd have pre-ordered it there. That just because i do want this material soonest, and I don't care about the preorder incentives. In fact, the preorder incentive for DDB is utterly worthless to me -- I'm not interested in homebrew feats from 3rd parties. So that doesn't even enter into my calculations. And, since it doesn't, your questions make absolutely no sense, because the value of something I already hold to be valueless in the event Xanthar's is crap isn't relevant to me at all. I'd have preordered without it (and did), so it's presence is entirely extra and not a justification.

And, that's where I think you've gone off the rails -- in claiming that pre-order incentives are the defining decision point for those deciding to pre-order. I think they're far more just something nice for people that are already interested in pre-ordering, like my son and Destiny 2 or me and Xanthar's. Their availability isn't a factor in my decision, because making a decision to purchase based on ancillary things is silly. If you're so caught up in what you get free that you're ordering things you don't really know if you want, the problem isn't the free things: it's you decision making.
 

Mr. Wilson

Explorer
First of all, I freely admit this is just theoretical to me as I don't pay for D&D Beyond and have no real interest in doing so.

With that said, I do purchase 3rd party material, mostly adventures from the DM's Guild, but I also own Tome of Beasts and The Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting. I'd be more concerned with the quality of the feats over the fact they are given away as a bonus for preordering. They could be great or they could be crap given that I am unaware of any of their designers being actual game designers as opposed to software designers.

But that's just me.
 

Their availability isn't a factor in my decision, because making a decision to purchase based on ancillary things is silly. If you're so caught up in what you get free that you're ordering things you don't really know if you want, the problem isn't the free things: it's you decision making.

Yes, absolutely yes. Quoted for truth. :)

It's right up there with buying something you don't want just because you have a really good coupon. You shouldn't be mad at the coupon.
 

Gardens & Goblins

First Post
If you're so caught up in what you get free that you're ordering things you don't really know if you want, the problem isn't the free things: it's you decision making.

Now now, if we start treating people as if they can make rational, informed decisions, we'll have no need for the marketing department.

And the economists might actually get it right :D
 

Dualazi

First Post
Well, actually...

1) The feats are a preview of their homebrew feat system, so, like other homebrew, they will likely be available for free to all subscribers eventually. (The feats will not be AL legal. They have already said that.)

2) There is also the character sheet customizations. They haven't gone into a lot of detail on that, but in the developers have talked about customizations being generally available, so like the feats, it's most likely just early access.

3) Alpha test early access to the mobile app. Yet again, it's just early access to something everyone can access for free later.

Those points might make this instance of pre-order bonuses slightly more palatable to people based on their own viewpoints, but doesn't really address the underlying issue.



I'm going to see the new Blade Runner movie this weekend. I don't need to read reviews, it seems interesting enough and I trust those involved enough that the investment in time and money is worth the risk. Same for every Marvel movie for me. When Star Wars: The Last Jedi comes out, I already know I will see it. Plus I will actually actively avoid all trailers and reviews as much as possible.

I eat at restaurants without reading reviews. Buy clothes without reading reviews. Heck, I buy all sorts of products online without even being able to *see or touch* the product in person. That doesn't make me a bad consumer, just one that has better things to do than read reviews on every single dollar I spend. Some things I am either unsure about or it is worth my time to research, other things aren't worth it to me to wait and research. I just know I want to buy them. Pre-ordering might make it more apparent, but that's really been how it's worked since... well... commerce was invented ages ago. There's nothing new here.

It makes you a 'bad' consumer in as much as you can be one, really. Your choice to take increased risk out of disinterest or blind faith is a choice that is yours alone to make, but let's not pretend it's the informed one.

A failed pre-order scheme doesn't prove the practice is bad, just that that scheme was poorly implemented and/or planned. The bit about microtransactions in NBA 2k18, while I agree is very annoying and just one reason I avoid EA sports titles, is entirely orthogonal to your argument about pre-orders.

The NBA 2k18 is directly related to my argument because it shows how an innocuous addition to an industry can balloon into a hugely corrupting and abusive influence. Microtransactions were initially confined to low-quality free games or bargain bin MMOs, but now they're in mainstream AAA titles. That's one of the cruxes of my argument, that by giving in to that temptation people will reinforce publishers opinions that this is now up for grabs in the tabletop hobby.

I can trivially disprove this. Bungie, with Destiny 2 pre-orders, began downloading files to pre-order customers 2 weeks early and in measured packages. I didn't have to download a single thing on launch day because everything was already pre-installed, a move that meant that Bungie (or more precisely, their parent company) reduced load on their download infrastructure on launch day. Because my son would have bought it on launch day if he couldn't pre-order it and then sat there waiting for downloads.

Steam does this as well. And if you've never noticed a slowdown of download speeds during rush at open for digitally delivered games (or just for release day patches), then you're incredibly lucky or very unobservant.

We seem to have been talking past each other on this point because this proves nothing. My point was in regards to network/server capacity. A great many people pre-ordered Diablo 3 and their infrastructure collapsed on launch day, same as other notorious examples like the late Sim City. I have not seen any conclusive proof that companies have allocated game servers as a result of pre-order data.

As an aside, it's probably the 'lucky' option, or rather the 'cautious' one. As you've probably gathered I'm pretty averse to buying without substantial knowledge beforehand, the acquisition of such information usually shielding me from early issues like download hangups.

And we're back to pure opinion. To bring up Destiny 2, for my son, he was very happy with the pre-order bennies he got. He purchased the package that includes the season pass at a discounted price and also some limited-time exclusive cosmetics and weapons. These items are limted to pre-purchase for a few months and then go full access. i've seen them and they're interesting but not overpowered or significant to gameplay. None of the items are in the current PvP meta. But he likes them and, since he was buying at first availability to play with his friends doing the same, he's tickled pink to have a few things thrown his way for something he'd have pre-ordered without bennies. And I'm happy he saved a few bucks on the season pass.

The fact that your son chose to take on double risk (unknown game and unknown DLC quality) is largely immaterial to the argument/opinion. I can just as easily add my own anecdote of my brother, who pre-puchased The Division and its season pass and both the base game and the season of DLC were incredibly underwhelming. Also kind of proves my point about the psychological trickery at play here; you admit the things he got are not of major significance, yet he is pleased with his decision to pre-order, thus increasing the chances he has to do so again in the future. This is how we get No Man's Sky, people lulled in false complacency as consumers.

And, that's where I think you've gone off the rails -- in claiming that pre-order incentives are the defining decision point for those deciding to pre-order. I think they're far more just something nice for people that are already interested in pre-ordering, like my son and Destiny 2 or me and Xanthar's. Their availability isn't a factor in my decision, because making a decision to purchase based on ancillary things is silly. If you're so caught up in what you get free that you're ordering things you don't really know if you want, the problem isn't the free things: it's you decision making.

Because you're sane, yes, but there are definitely people who will buy the product in question multiple times simply to get all the content. Probably not a large percentage, but then again, freemium apps are likewise successful off a small portion of their userbase. As such, there are indeed people who will likely buy this product or others simply because of the bonuses.

The thing you and kenmarble should think about is many of your respective counterpoints rest on the assumption that you were going to buy it anyway. For those who are more on the fence, the inclusion of bonuses might override their unease against their best interests.

For what it's worth, I've enjoyed this conversation but will probably be my last post in the thread, as we've both reasonably articulated our points and I don't think we're going to change each other's minds on this topic. I still hold that the practice itself (pre-orders) is fundamentally anti-consumer, since it is based on keeping the customer uninformed, and I guess I'll simply have to keep an eye on how Xanathar's does on launch day to see how many people agree or disagree with me.
 

Remove ads

Top