Xanathar's 18 Pages of What??

[Yaarel]

Actually, according to some sources, one of his ancestors was born via Caesarean section, but I don't think he was ever mentioned as being born via c-sec. Caesar has been a Iulii cognomen for a some time before *the* Julius Caesar was born (e.g. his father and grandfather were also named Gaius Julius Caesar).

I see what you are saying. Caesarean section happened earlier in the family.



The main point is, what is being called a ‘family name’ isnt a family name, like Smith. It is a personal name, like John. The kids are simply being named after the father. Like, John C. Smith the First, John C. Smith the Second, John C. Smith the Third, and so on.



In the days of the Julius Caesar, the cognomen is still a cognomen, a less important distinguishing name. Caesar isnt a ‘family name’ per se.

Several families, including the family of the Julius Caesar, have the tradition of naming the legitimate male heir the same name as the father. The same full name.

There were many generations in a row, named ‘Gaius Julius Caesar’.

The Julius Caesar appears to be Gaius Julius Caesar ‘the Fourth’.



When the Julius Caesar adopted ‘Gaius Octavius Thurinus’, the adopted son became the legal heir, thus changed his name to ‘Gaius Julius Caesar’ as well, becoming the Fifth.

This adopted son used his new cognomen ‘Caesar’ as his *personal name*, the name that he went by. (Like John.) He will actually change his name many times, but he will continue to use Caesar as his personal name.

This adopted son will go thru many name changes, and eventually become the first emperor, and eventually get the name Augustus as a quasi royal title that he will add to his own name as an extra cognomen. There are at least six aliases!

• Gaius Octavius Thurinus
• Gaius Julius Caesar ‘Octavianus’
• Gaius Julius Caesar
• Gaius Julius Caesar ‘Divi Filius’
• ‘Imperator’ Caesar Divi Filius
• Imperator Caesar Divi Filius ‘Augustus’

The first four aliases are conventional: praenomen-nomen-cognomen plus extra cognomina. With adoption, he legally gains a new clan name Julius. Plus he gains Octavianus as a formulaic name recalling his birth clan, but he distanced himself from it and dropped it. Later he added a sacred name, Divi Filius, as a cognomen. It literally means ‘son of the divine’, in honor of when the Senate officially deified his adoptive father Julius Caesar.

However, the fifth alias is radical. He actually deletes his clan name from his legal name. And replaces it with the title ‘Imperator’. Possibly the title serves as a quasi clan name, where all Roman citizens are considered to be members of his family, thus obedient to him as the patriarch (pater familias).

At the same time, he drops his praenomen ‘Gaius’. It is around this time that Romans are starting to downplay their praenomen, and use their cognomen as the personal name. By dropping his praenomen, the personal name that he went by is clearly his cognomen ‘Caesar’.

Later the Senate awarded him with the honorary title ‘Augustus’, and he added this title to his name as an extra cognomen.

Note the transformation of his name.

• Gaius (praenomen) Julius (nomen) Caesar (cognomen)
• Imperator (title) Caesar (cognomen) Divi Filius (cognomen) Augustus (cognomen)

The cognomen Caesar is actually his personal name.



Heh, like I mentioned earlier, the imperial names get complicated.

 

[delericho]

In this case, when he was born he was given the name ‘caesar’ because he was literally born by means of a caesarean section, cutting thru the abdomen, when the mother had difficulty giving birth to him.

It's funny how much one can learn as a byproduct of RPGs - until this post I had been of the impression that the C-section was named for Caesar, rather than the other way around. (And, also, that it referred to the GJC, rather than one of his ancestors.)

Or: you learn something new every day!

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I see what you are saying. Caesarean section happened earlier in the family.

Maybe. The story is apocryphal. And there are competing alternate etymologies for the name. Caesii can mean 'blue eyes', and caesaries can mean 'hair'.

The main point is, what is being called a ‘family name’ isnt a family name, like Smith. It is a personal name, like John. The kids are simply being named after the father. Like, John C. Smith the First, John C. Smith the Second, John C. Smith the Third, and so on.

As opposed to a family name, where the kids are... named after the father?

Several families, including the family of the Julius Caesar, have the tradition of naming the legitimate male heir the same name as the father. The same full name.

Please, please do some basic fact-checking before you post. There were also numerous Sextus Julius Caesars and Lucius Julius Caesars filling out the family tree, including the dictator's uncle. It's not just a single line of Gaii. Which makes sense, because Caesar was the family name.

 

[Yaarel]

As opposed to a family name, where the kids are... named after the father?.

Being named after the dad isnt a ‘family’ name, because the remaining children in the family lack it.

For example, Emperor Vespasianus isnt named after his father, he is named after his mother, Vespasia.

Please, please do some basic fact-checking before you post.

It helps to assume the best in people in this forum. A belligerent adversarial tone, makes one think twice before responding. It is humorous when sometimes the point that is being aggressively insisted on is incorrect.

There were also numerous Sextus Julius Caesars and Lucius Julius Caesars filling out the family tree, including the dictator's uncle. It's not just a single line of Gaii. Which makes sense, because Caesar was the family name.

It is incorrect to term Caesar a ‘family’ name. One of the kids is being named after one of the parents. Other kids in the family dont have this name.

Take the case of Emperor Vespasianus. He also has the name Caesar, but it isnt a family name. He is simply named after Caesar, who he has no family relations to.

His full name is:

• Titus (praenomen) Flavius (nomen)
Caesar (cognomen) Vespasianus (cognomen) Augustus (cognomen)

In his case, Flavius is his clan name. Titus is a distinguishing name. His cognomen Vespasianus is his personal name, the name that we went by.

However, when he formally became emperor, he changed his name to ‘Caesar’ because from that point on, people normally referred to him by the name Caesar. That became his new personal name. Probably his family and friends still referred to him as Vespasianus in informal contexts.

Caesar isnt a ‘family’ name. None of his ancestors are named Caesar. He is simply named after him in honor of him. And it became his new personal name.

Augustus is a title for a reigning emperor while on the throne.

 

[Yaarel]

If I remember correctly, the US presidential Kennedy clan, also has many members named ‘John’, ‘John F’, using ‘Kennedy’ as middle name, and so on. The clan − including more distant relatives − are simply celebrating the success and fame of one of their members.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Being named after the dad isnt a ‘family’ name, because the remaining children in the family lack it.

I don't know how else to say it: what you are claiming is just not true. To the best of our knowledge, all of the dictator's patrilineal male relatives had the name Caesar. I have already mentioned that his uncle -- that is, his father's brother -- had it. His great-uncles had it. His male cousins had it. If he had had any brothers, they would have had it.

If you think I'm wrong, you could easily have shown us all these supposed children who lack the name. Instead, you went off on a tangent about Vespasian that proves nothing.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't know how else to say it: what you are claiming is just not true. To the best of our knowledge, all of the dictator's patrilineal male relatives had the name Caesar. I have already mentioned that his uncle -- that is, his father's brother -- had it. His great-uncles had it. His male cousins had it. If he had had any brothers, they would have had it.

If you think I'm wrong, you could easily have shown us all these supposed children who lack the name. Instead, you went off on a tangent about Vespasian that proves nothing.

For example, the dictator Gaius Julius Caesar has two sisters. Both are named Julia. Neither is named Caesar nor Caesaris. So, Caesar isnt a ‘family’ name.

(Note, historians sometimes call the sisters Julia Caesaris, or Julia Major/Minor to distinguish them from each other.)

Julius is the clan name. These two sisters only have one name, the grammatically feminine form of the clan name.

One might expect that their name would be: Julia Julius. Thus preserve the clan name. But their name seems to be Julia, only. The women appear to be understood as embodiments and representatives of the clan. Hence a feminine form of the clan name.

 

[cbwjm]

I've just done a quick wikipedia (you may or may not give wikipedia much credit) search on Julius Gaius Caesar. Julius was the Family/Clan name. Gaius was the personal name. Caesar was a hereditary cognomen (apparently Cognomen could be nicknames but also had hereditary usage) and was used to designate a different branch of the family which would explain why other family members of Julius Gaius Caesar had the name of Caesar, they belonged to the same branch of the family.

 

[Yaarel]

I've just done a quick wikipedia (you may or may not give wikipedia much credit) search on Julius Gaius Caesar. Julius was the Family/Clan name. Gaius was the personal name. Caesar was a hereditary cognomen (apparently Cognomen could be nicknames but also had hereditary usage) and was used to designate a different branch of the family which would explain why other family members of Julius Gaius Caesar had the name of Caesar, they belonged to the same branch of the family.

That is fine. But some members of this family lacked the name Caesar.

It is also important to keep in mind other Roman families had different preferences.

Also, there requires attention because in later generations, the cognomen Caesar becomes the personal name.

 

[Yaarel]

Heh, reviewing all of this stuff about imperial Romans. There is no way around it, they were murderous thugs.