About the War Cleric......

[touc]

I don't see any need to change it.

Real world play: DM'd two War Cleric gamers in campaigns that ended at 14th and 8th levels. The description of soldier to general is right on. Neither were the primary fighter-type or main damage dealer, ever. Neither made an "optimal" melee build (a war cleric who buffs doesn't need a high wisdom). Both had concerns at low levels about the class and contacted me. In summary, I think both wanted more a paladin than a cleric. I discussed with both how clerics could influence battle with the right spell at the right time, and the right buff. Every buff was more damage done. If the Barbarian hits because of your Bless, or you Channel Divinity to give the Wizard +10 to his Bigby's spell, that's you doing damage and that's you furthering the ethos of War.

But, I'll concede that the bonus attack has heavy influence on making a melee class, and there's a letdown when that alone adds, maybe, another 7 damage in a given battle. Still, we should think: when, in the history of any edition, has the Cleric ever been as great at fighting as the Fighter? They're already a full spellcasting class and with Heavy Armor + Shield, a pain to hit and capable of being the most adaptable caster out there. I don't see design flaw but rather player expectation that they're playing something that will wreak havoc like a Barbarian. Once you're past that, it works.

 

[Ancalagon]

Huh? Spiritual Weapon is a bonus action spell that can be used for pretty much an entire encounter. Can scale up and doesn't even require concentration, so unless you're a War Cleric with a higher Str than Wis, and you're using a magic Greatsword or similar, You'll be better off using Spiritual Weapon with your bonus action than War Priest's bonus attack even if you take the attack action on that turn.

He's agreeing with you.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Just give them Extra Attack at level 6 and replace the 8th levels Divine Strike with something like, "Your weapon attacks always count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

If Valor Bard, Bladesinger Wizard, and Blade Pact Warlock get it by level 6, War Cleric can have it, too. Nuts to this "full casters can't get Extra Attack" nonsense. They're still going to struggle to keep up with the Fighter, and will likely be less effective than a regular Cleric, but if people want to be a melee Cleric I don't see why there can't be a Domain for it.

 

[CTurbo]

Again, I don't think the War Cleric should be as good at fighting as a Fighter, I just think it should probably be the best domain at fighting.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm considering one of the following house rules.

1) War Priest doesn't require a bonus action

OR

2) War Priest doesn't require a bonus action, and doesn't require you to take the Attack action either. Can't use it more than once per turn though.

I'm sure option 1 wouldn't be overpowered, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. You'd be able to do two attacks plus cast bonus action spells (or attack with spiritual weapon) a few times per day.

I'm pretty sure option 2 would be good enough, but it might be too good. It would allow you to use your action to cast a spell, while using your bonus action to attack with spiritual weapon and still make a weapon attack (which would benefit from Divine Strike from 8th level on, and could benefit from Guided Strike from 2nd on) a few times per day.

I'd be interesting in hearing people's balance thoughts on those possibilities.

 

[CTurbo]

I'm considering one of the following house rules.

1) War Priest doesn't require a bonus action

OR

2) War Priest doesn't require a bonus action, and doesn't require you to take the Attack action either. Can't use it more than once per turn though.

I'm sure option 1 wouldn't be overpowered, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. You'd be able to do two attacks plus cast bonus action spells (or attack with spiritual weapon) a few times per day.

I'm pretty sure option 2 would be good enough, but it might be too good. It would allow you to use your action to cast a spell, while using your bonus action to attack with spiritual weapon and still make a weapon attack (which would benefit from Divine Strike from 8th level on, and could benefit from Guided Strike from 2nd on) a few times per day.

I'd be interesting in hearing people's balance thoughts on those possibilities.

I agree with you that 1) is not quite good enough on it's own and 2) is probably a little too good.


How about War Priest being a reaction attack instead? Possibly triggered by either you getting attacked or by an ally within 5ft of you getting attacked?


Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of War Priest being a reaction attack. Both Tempest and Light have great reaction abilities but the War domain doesn't have anything to do with it's reaction. I think having a reaction attack, even restricted, really ups the melee potential. The only thing that could be a problem would be the fact that it would get the benefit of Divine Strike too, but it's only 3-5 times a day so I'm good with it. It would hands down make the War domain the best domain for melee. But then again, you'd have the 1-2 level dipping power gamers abusing it....

 

[CapnZapp]

Again, I don't think the War Cleric should be as good at fighting as a Fighter, I just think it should probably be the best domain at fighting.

And until the design acknowledges the Cleric doesn't want to use the Attack action, it will remain a ill-suited design.

Contrast the houserule suggestion given a while back:

You get to make a melee weapon attack using a bonus action when you use the Cast a Spell action to cast a non-cantrip spell.

I'm not commenting on balance; I'm making the point that this design gets what a Cleric is about.

 

[Henry]

I’ve never seen a problem with them, and I’ve been playing in a game where another player has been playing a war cleric alongside a Paladin and a Barbarian. He doesn’t outshine the Barb or the Pal, but he is invaluable at both hitting when it counts, and helping the Pal or Barb hit when it counts. Many, many times have I heard the following exchange several rounds deep into the combat:

Paladin: I attack the high priest/evil wizard/fighter... Darn it, my attack’s a 15. I missed!
War Cleric: <waves hand>no, you hit.
DM: looks like you hit after all!

Between that and his ability to make use of any weapon or armor found, he holds the line very respectably when the Barbarian needs to get a deep into enemy territory, and his spells can turn the tide of a battle. I’ve never seen a moment where he lamented not being a tempest or life cleric. He especially wouldn’t give up his level 3 or level 6 ability just for an extra attack each round - he’s not meant to be the spearhead. If he were, he’d be a paladin instead.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The thing is, any caster once they get to high level (around 10) is going to be too busy using their actions to cast spells to be bothered hitting things with melee weapons or casting cantrips. Thus pretty much all clerics play the same from that level upwards. The only difference is what bonus spells they have access too. Same is true for wizards, sorcerers, bards and druids. Fighty-fighty abilities may be fun to have at low level but at high level they become irrelevant.

 

[CapnZapp]

The thing is, any caster once they get to high level (around 10) is going to be too busy using their actions to cast spells to be bothered hitting things with melee weapons or casting cantrips. Thus pretty much all clerics play the same from that level upwards. The only difference is what bonus spells they have access too. Same is true for wizards, sorcerers, bards and druids. Fighty-fighty abilities may be fun to have at low level but at high level they become irrelevant.

Again, that is why the suggested bonus attack on casting a spell is good design - it displays understanding of exactly this.