About the War Cleric......

[Paul Farquhar]

The War domain cleric has the highest cleric DPS levels 1-4, and is in the middle at higher levels (behind Light and Tempest, but ahead of Life, Knowledge, Trickery and poor old Nature). it is at no point at the bottom. It doesn't need any extra help.

It's quite common for "definitive" abilities to become obsolescent at high levels when spell slots are plentiful - take the druid's shape shifting for example. D&D has always been this way, and is not broken, mostly because the D&D is usually played at low levels and high level games are rare.

 

[CapnZapp]

The point is, if you gave war clerics that ability it would make them substantially superior to all other full casters.

No they wouldn't.

A measly melee attack from an unoptimized build (like a Cleric) doesn't qualify as "substantial" any way you look at it.

What it does is it incentivizes the Cleric to close to melee, which seems appropriate for a War anything.

It would be good, no arguments there. But "substantially superior"?

I think it goes a long way to claim a niche for the domain, since heavy armor is apparently handed out to domains like candy nowadays... But if looked at in a harsh light, all it does is give War a "manual martial" version of Spiritual Weapon.

 

[CapnZapp]

The War domain cleric has the highest cleric DPS levels 1-4, and is in the middle at higher levels (behind Light and Tempest, but ahead of Life, Knowledge, Trickery and poor old Nature). it is at no point at the bottom. It doesn't need any extra help.

It's quite common for "definitive" abilities to become obsolescent at high levels when spell slots are plentiful - take the druid's shape shifting for example. D&D has always been this way, and is not broken, mostly because the D&D is usually played at low levels and high level games are rare.

If it helps, consider two standpoints:
A) a subclass is okay even if only for tier I.
B) a subclass needs help if it fades after only a single tier.

Now, if we assume A) yes, this thread is over.

Since many of us continue discussing, maybe assume B instead...?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If it helps, consider two standpoints:
A) a subclass is okay even if only for tier I.
B) a subclass needs help if it fades after only a single tier.

Now, if we assume A) yes, this thread is over.

Since many of us continue discussing, maybe assume B instead...?

If it fades from being average to being poor, then there may be a problem. If it fades from outstanding to average, as is the case here, no problem exists. If you want to look at underperforming cleric domains, look at Nature.

What it does is it incentivizes the Cleric to close to melee, which seems appropriate for a War anything.

No it isn't. A War Domain cleric is the representative of a god of war. He is not himself the warrior - his god is. A warrior might go to a priest and ask him to intercede for him with the god of war.

Any cleric is a full caster, and as a full caster, there job is to cast spells, not attack with weapons. (In D&D low level casters are sometimes forced to resort to weapons due to lack of spell slots).

If you wanted to incentivise him to use weapons, then the way to do it would be to nerf his number of spells. But there is no need, we already have that class - it's called paladin.

It's also worth noting that the longbow is just as much a weapon of war than any melee weapon. There is no reason why a god of war should favour melee over ranged combat.

 

[jasper]

Hendrix the bard takes the stage
War Clerics, huh, yeah
What is they good for
Chorus Throwing out healing, listen to me
War, huh, yeah
What is they good for
Chorus Blessing all around us, listen to me
Say it again, why'all
War, huh, good god evil god
What is they good for

Chorus Spare the dying, listen to me

Oh, war clerics, I despise
'Cause it means destruction of innocent monsters
War means tears to thousands of goblin mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives
I said, war clerics, good god bad god , why'all
What is they good for?

Chorus Turning undead, listen to me

War Clerics , whoa, lord
What is it good for?

Chorus Raising Rangers, listen to me

(War) Clerics ain't nothing but a heart-breaker
(War) Clerics friend only to the Necromancer.
Oh, war it's an enemy to all monsterkind
The point of war clerics blows my mind
War Clerics has caused unrest
Chorus, Especially if dm won’t allow a long rest.

War Clerics Induction then destruction
Who wants to die, ah, war-huh, good god, evil god why'all
What is they good for

Chorus Throwing out healing, listen to me

Say it, say it, say it
War Clerics, huh
What is they good for

Chorus Throwing out healing, listen to me

 

[CapnZapp]

If you want to look at underperforming cleric domains, look at Nature.

How about we make an arrangement?

You start a thread on Nature Clerics, and in return, you let us keep improving the War Cleric here.

Deal?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What it does is it incentivizes the Cleric to close to melee, which seems appropriate for a War anything.

What about WARlock?

 

[Pauper]

And until the design acknowledges the Cleric doesn't want to use the Attack action, it will remain a ill-suited design.

I've seen this assertion a few times now in this thread, but haven't seen any real justification for it.

In fact, having seen the War Cleric in play, I can suggest exactly the opposite -- the War Cleric is exactly the cleric who wants to cast a spell at the start of combat (Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, etc.) and then use the Attack action while that spell is running. It's not that they get huge damage from their weapon attacks or from their spells, but the combination of the two leads to consistent high damage output that remains competitive with other classes throughout the campaign.

Not to mention that most of the suggestions to 'upgrade' the War Cleric's abilities take a step toward what was one of the biggest problems in Third Edition, that buffing clerics (particularly buffing clerics with the Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell feats) were generally better fighters than fighters were.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd like to see a more detailed analysis than "the class is generally regarding as lacking compared to other melee-based classes".

--
Pauper

 

[CapnZapp]

I think there's a mismatch in our assumptions for this discussion, as if we are talking slightly past each other.

My approach is seeing the War Priest ability and wanting to illustrate the specific cause that makes people dissatisfied with it.

The cause is "the designer assuming the Attack action and thus putting a high value on getting a bonus attack", specifically without realizing that all it does is let you replicate two-weapon fighting without having to let go of your shield.

The suggestion to grant a bonus melee attack after casting a spell is thus an excellent way to put the spotlight on EXACTLY where the PHB design went astray, by showing EXACTLY what is better.

That doesn't mean I endorse that as a complete, play-tested, package.

The issue might be that I haven't made it sufficiently clear I'm not primarily interested in balance at this point.

I'm talking about fundamentals of design. I'm talking conceptual examples.

 

[Hjorimir]

For those of you who want to give the War Priest ability a nudge up in power, allow it to refresh usage after a short rest.