D&D 4E 4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain

[Manbearcat]

OK I will bite I have been working on a Practice that has a very LOKI feel to it basically the character can figure out The Perfect Price for a subject its a Insight Based item... the effect is it allows you to effectively barter down the price of just such a situation. (So if the rest of the party goes with it then its rather designed just for this) normally it takes time to perform as one has to go and gather what the subject wants more than just popping out the gold so in the end the party has spent from 1/2 to 1/5th the amount on that bribe ie 1/20th to 1/50th but the party on the other end is nice and happy it sometimes can take considerable time to do story might preclude it in a time intensive situation.

If one didnt have the practice but was still trained in Insight it might somewhat be achievable but the die roll would be just to find success and it might only be 1/2 price at best. Say actually giving them a magic item of lower level... one he knows will make his boss happy with him perhaps.

Trying to wear a DMs and Players hat at the same time with my usually game hacker hat getting mixed in LOL.

Alright. Let me get back to it.

I like this Garthanos. This would, of course, be taking place before/in the stead of the Fighter's move and the fiction subsequent to that.

However, I'm not sure about Insight as the triggered skill for the action declaration. It seems to me that it would go one of two ways:

1) History if the Rogue is pulling out some kind of "if you destroy our world, the only place you'll be able to offload this Residiuum for assets is Sigil...and the exchange rate there is x, so your purchasing power is significantly more than it would be on our mortal plane...so how about price n/2?"

2) Bluff if the Rogue is just flying by the seat of his pants and pulling a fast one on the alien.

I really like this though (especially the first one). The problem here is that this is a complex action conversation so it would have to be funneled through the Wizard and his CL. So I'd have to go Hard DC here.

What do you think about the above?

The thing is though, a success would = 2 successes; 1 for the $ exchange and 1 for the successful History or Bluff...so a pretty beefy move all in all.

 

[Manbearcat]

I don't know how to answer, because what is "traditional D&D?" Are we comparing it to AD&D 1st and 2nd edition? Basic? 3.x? 5th edition?

I consider traditional D&D to be 1e and Basic (I never played OD&D). 2e and 3e move off of the trad conception of the game a few nuanced but significant ways in terms of machinery and play priorities.

5e much more closely resembles a mash-up of 2e and 3e (particularly in ethos) than it does 1e and Basic, but it be drifted there with a little effort; xp for Treasure/Gold only, no Feats, Wandering Monsters, Monster Reaction, Morale, rougher Rest scheduling, get rid of Rituals and Cantrips, Cleave module against 1 or less HD creatures. That sort of stuff. And completely neutral refereeing (no fudging and your goal isn't storytelling..its executing the dungeon/hex crawl environment and obstacles).

 

[Garthanos]

Alright. Let me get back to it.

I like this Garthanos. This would, of course, be taking place before/in the stead of the Fighter's move and the fiction subsequent to that.

yes its reasonable to say the barn door was already left open and that opportunity flew the coup. (let's mix and match metaphors till somebody cringes)

However, I'm not sure about Insight as the triggered skill for the action declaration. It seems to me that it would go one of two ways:

That one is about analysing the subject and figuring out what they would like "more than what its really worth"

But since Thor already stuck his biceps into play it could be hard to interject - picture Loki grumbling about incompetence.

1) History if the Rogue is pulling out some kind of "if you destroy our world, the only place you'll be able to offload this Residuum for assets is Sigil...and the exchange rate there is x, so your purchasing power is significantly more than it would be on our mortal plane...so how about price n/2?"

Might float, it is basically the business mans hand waving trick.

 

[Garthanos]

That one is about analysing the subject and figuring out what they would like "more than what its really worth"

You can use it on figuring out what the lady on the corner would take as a gift in trade for a Pie that is worth less than the pie.

It can be a seat ability for a chain of Russian fable style acquisitions to achieve an end goal.

 

[Manbearcat]

yes its reasonable to say the barn door was already left open and that opportunity flew the coup. (let's mix and match metaphors till somebody cringes)

That one is about analyzing the subject and figuring out what they would like "more than what its really worth"

But since Thor already stuck his biceps into play it could be hard to interject - picture Loki grumbling about incompetence.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

I could see it going down like this:

1) Fighter succeeds at Endurance check to stoically accept the laser fire square in the chest armor (effectively in Dungeon World terms "Defy Danger Con") that would lead to (a) 3rd success (vs 1 failure) and...

2) The commander and his heavy armor brigade realizing they've been sent on a suicide mission. He reopens the option for negotiation but now on the PC's terms; say half his prior price so only 1/20th (21,250) an of level item in Residuum.

3) They could either accept the price for the final success in the SC or the Rogue could declare the action you mentioned via Insight. This would mostly be the Rogue taking the measure of the brigade commander. He's an alien with alien features and alien countenance so this is the perfect kind of thing for an Epic Rogue to discern. He would have to funnel the brief conversation through the Wizard, but it wouldn't be complex.

I think something like:

Insight Medium DC and they accept the alien's prior terms but at 1/25th an of level item in Residuum (17 k). 9 - 10 roll required here.

Insight Hard DC DC and they dictate new terms; They leave the two Hoverpods and the aliens pile in a primary vehicle. They get to keep their lives and the Wizard will Plane Shift them to a Plane of their choice (quite a discount from the PCs; 17000 vs the 1000 gold by the Wizard to cast the Ritual). The Rogue would probably be trained in Insight (the Rogue in my game, with 8 skills, was) and it would probably be somewhere around a 19 to 20. So somewhere between 10 to 15 % odds vs High DC.

 

[Garthanos]

That actually makes a lot of sense.

Knew I didnt express it well enough.

The rogue who knows the practice usually takes his time at it and often has to go gather the item or items the person would "really really" like perhaps spending a healing surge in the process of doing that.

 

[Garthanos]

Loves the Defy Danger bit by the way.

 

[Garthanos]

Insight Medium DC and they accept the alien's prior terms but at 1/25th an of level item in Residuum (17 k). 9 - 10 roll required here.

Insight Hard DC DC and they dictate new terms; They leave the two Hoverpods and the aliens pile in a primary vehicle. They get to keep their lives and the Wizard will Plane Shift them to a Plane of their choice (quite a discount from the PCs; 17000 vs the 1000 gold by the Wizard to cast the Ritual). The Rogue would probably be trained in Insight (the Rogue in my game, with 8 skills, was) and it would probably be somewhere around a 19 to 20. So somewhere between 10 to 15 % odds vs High DC.

I am a more conservative die roller when I have a choice but the Rogue I was describing might actually have a higher roll (because at least 2 of his character defining practices were dependent on it - skill focus and maybe a background that helped.)

OK I am thinking of it this way in the first case Loki was only able to discern that the alien really does value the residuum more than was expected...

However in the second instance he learns the captain would like to get himself and his men out of a situation where he is forced into suicide missions like confronting superheros on the front porch such as porting them with some transportation to a nearby material plane.

 

[Garthanos]

I am a more conservative die roller when I have a choice but the Rogue I was describing might actually have a higher roll (because at least 2 of his character defining practices were dependent on it - skill focus and maybe a background that helped.)

OK I am thinking of it this way in the first case Loki was only able to discern that the alien really does value the residuum more than was expected...

However in the second instance he learns the captain would like to get himself and his men out of a situation where he is forced into suicide missions like confronting superheros on the front porch such as porting them with some transportation to a nearby material plane.

@Manbearcat
I might even as a player like to up the stakes in a clear fashion which fit the fiction to get the second result...

 

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]
I would even as a player like to up the stakes in a clear fashion which fit the fiction to get the second result...

So in Blades in the Dark parlance that would be setting Position and Effect. 4e handles this pretty much the same way, it just doesn't explicate it like that.

So the default Position in Blades in the Dark is Risky with Controlled and Desperate being on opposite ends. The default Effect is Standard with Limited and Great being on opposite ends.

Trading Position for Effect or vice versa is orthodox Blades. Procedurally, it would be the same sort of deal in 4e.

So here, given that the mechanical state would be at 3 Successes and 1 Failure with a High DC Insight effort (as outlined above) in play to possibly cement success (but the 2nd failure would mean things are still in the balance), the barter could be spending a Surge to drop it down to the Medium DC (so turning it into vs accruing 2 Failures and bumping the Encounter Budget up by 2 levels if it fails.

The player would have to propose at the table how this might go down. Something like:

"I'm taking my time...an extended exchange through the Wizard to feel this guy out...really getting the measure of him. Maybe some back and forth to see what he knows about our exploits and seeing how he responds to us filling in the gaps. No one has to die here. We don't want to kill him and his troops. We know they're just doing their duty...but it would be so easy for he and his troops to just...disappear.

I figure there is a chance that we may be talking along enough for reinforcements from the mother ship to arrive..."