A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Hmm. Some stuff to unpack, here.

Firstly, your characterization of SYORTD leaves out some important context, namely that if the GM doesn't say yes and instead goes to the mechanics, this still means that the player's action declaration comes true on a successful resolution of the mechanics. The GM cannot substitute a check for a different outcome as the Roll The Dice option, they must instead address the intent of the player's action faithfully. They must, if they roll the dice, fulfill the intent of the action declaration if the player is successful and thwart/complicate it if it isn't successful. Carrying this through to your OD&D example, your examples fails at SYORTD because the mechanics do not honor the action declaration. In this example, the player(s) declare that they wish to parley, the GM has denied that declaration (no say yes, no rolling the dice) and instead moved to combat, which is against the intent of the player(s). If this was SYORTD, then even if the GM did not say yes, the appropriate roll of the dice would be to determine if the parley attempt was successful, or, at least, opened for further play. If that check fails, then an appropriate resolution may indeed be the start of combat, as that definitely thwarts the intent of opening a parley.

I think you've internalized an incorrect formulation of SYORTD as it's meant to be applied. You're close, but you've not stepped all the way across the threshold. For example, you've said many times that DW doesn't allow players to insert new fictions through action declarations, and pointed to Spout Lore as an example. What I think you may miss is that when a player makes the Move to Spout Lore, the GM is obligated to provide new fiction according to the intent of the player on a success (or partial success). IE, the player prompts the GM on what new fiction they want, and the DM is required to provide it. If the player asks, for instance, if secret doors are common in this area and succeeds, it would be a poor GM reply to answer 'No' because that thwarts the player's clear intent to learn more about secret doors in the area. This isn't well expounded in the SRD materials, not sure about the actual book, but it goes with the GM's maxims for DW, namely, "leave blanks", "play to find out", "always speak true", and "let the players decide, sometimes." The point of DW is to build the game in play, and if you really think that only the GM has the authority to author or direct new fiction in play, then you're missing out on a core part of what makes PbtA games really work.

As I said before, I'm much more familiar with Blades. And you asked how it works there. Simply, the player declares an action and what 'stat' they're rolling for it and the GM assigns position and effect, or, more simply, how dangerous that action is and how effective a success can be. So, in Blades, a character can easily declare they're looking for a secret door to escape the guards closing in, and even choose Wreck as the method, deciding they're going to bash their way into the secret passage through brute force. As a GM, I could say that this is a desperate move -- ie, if it doesn't work, the guard will be here and they're already mad -- with limited effect because I've already described the alley as brick walled. The player then can choose to forgo this action as unwise and try something else, or roll, even choosing to Push for greater effect by spending Stress. On a success (a die pool based on the stat is rolled, highest value taken, 6 succeeds outright, 4-5 succeeds with cost, 1-3 fails), the player bashes through a secret door into a new passage and the fiction moves on. On a partial, the player maybe drops the loot in the impact, or takes a wound, or a guard is hot on his heels. On a fail, they may bounce off the wall because that secret door is actually in a very similar alley, just not this one, and the guards are now here (and still angry).

And, I see this working well in DW, as well. The player makes the same declaration, but makes the Move to Discern Reality to find the door. As a GM, you should honor this declaration by not refuting it on a success and saying 'no secret door here' but instead move the game forward by providing information on the door according to the questions asked. Then play can be a Defy Danger to open and leap through the door before the guards can arrive and play a tattoo with their clubs. There's nothing in DW that prohibits players from requesting specific outcomes or interests with their rolls, just that the GM must provide these results on a success. This actually moves the game from puzzling out the GM's plans to free-wheeling finding out as you play. I encourage you to try it.

Also, paging @Manbearcat for a sanity check on the above.

I would just add that it is the INTENT which the GM must honor, not the specific action declaration. So in DW, for example, the player might be wanting to find a secret door, but the GM might supply a loose manhole cover, or a reachable fire escape ladder, instead. He could even go further afield and have some allies of the PC suddenly show up and chase off the bad guys. That might be taking the intent to a fairly abstract level, but it still accomplishes the goal the player was after, escaping (and now of course the GM can make a soft move and put forward the question of what the PC owes his new found friends...).
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I would just add that it is the INTENT which the GM must honor, not the specific action declaration. So in DW, for example, the player might be wanting to find a secret door, but the GM might supply a loose manhole cover, or a reachable fire escape ladder, instead. He could even go further afield and have some allies of the PC suddenly show up and chase off the bad guys. That might be taking the intent to a fairly abstract level, but it still accomplishes the goal the player was after, escaping (and now of course the GM can make a soft move and put forward the question of what the PC owes his new found friends...).

Not sure if you're agreeing or not....
 

Aldarc

Legend
The quote comes from Jesse Burneko's Play Passionately blog. He's a member of The Forge who just really grokked Sorcerer in the same way that John Harper just really got Apocalypse World. His blog just does a much better job of articulating the way I approach role playing games.

Here's the post:
Thank you!

I've seen many ways to play D&D, and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and others have used it for even more of them if you believe their posts here(and I do). That is pretty strong evidence that it's pretty easy to use D&D for virtually any playstyle you want to attempt.
I'm not so much talking about how was D&D throughout its entire legacy, but, rather, more about its earliest days of OD&D and 1E. And I believe that Luke Crane even had a Google+ thread where he actually talks about his experiences running 1E Basic (?) as per its design intent, guiding principles, mechanical quirks, etc. That does engender a more particularized style of play.
 

pemerton

Legend
Usually these types of games are testing the CHARACTERS more than the players. This is because they are games in which the play is about producing dramatic play in which the characters' enter into conflict related to things interesting enough for the player to put them on the character sheet. So it isn't normally about the player being involved directly in the conflict.
Here is Ron Edwards on the challenge of "story now" play to the participants:

Given that theme arises during Narrativist play, what does it look like, and how limited or well-defined is it? This breaks down into three independent issues . . .

1) The potential for personal risk and disclosure among the real people involved.

* High risk play is best represented by playing Sorcerer, Le Mon Mouri, InSpectres, Zero, or Violence Future. You're putting your ego on the line with this stuff, as genre conventions cannot help you; the other people in play are going to learn a lot about who you are.

* Low risk play is best represented by playing Castle Falkenstein, Wuthering Heights, The Dying Earth, or Prince Valiant. These games are, for lack of a better word, "lighter" or perhaps more whimsical - they do raise issues and may include extreme content, but play-decisions tend to be less self-revealing.​

The test/challenge for the player is not so much can you solve this puzzle as can you take having to make this choice? I would tend to put Burning Wheel into Ron Edwards's "high risk" category; and can testify from experience that he has correctly classified Print Valiant as "low risk". I think Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic also falls into the "low risk" category. I'll leave the classification of DW to others with more experience.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
Here is Ron Edwards on the challenge of "story now" play to the participants:

Given that theme arises during Narrativist play, what does it look like, and how limited or well-defined is it? This breaks down into three independent issues . . .

1) The potential for personal risk and disclosure among the real people involved.

* High risk play is best represented by playing Sorcerer, Le Mon Mouri, InSpectres, Zero, or Violence Future. You're putting your ego on the line with this stuff, as genre conventions cannot help you; the other people in play are going to learn a lot about who you are.

* Low risk play is best represented by playing Castle Falkenstein, Wuthering Heights, The Dying Earth, or Prince Valiant. These games are, for lack of a better word, "lighter" or perhaps more whimsical - they do raise issues and may include extreme content, but play-decisions tend to be less self-revealing.​

The test/challenge for the player is not so much can you solve this puzzle as can you take having to make this choice? I would tend to put Burning Wheel into Ron Edwards's "high risk" category; and can testify from experience that he has correctly classified Print Valiant as "low risk". I think Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic also falls into the "low risk" category. I'll leave the classification of DW to others with more experience.
I'd put DW in the low risk side; it's progenitor AW is surely more risky IME
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I didn't ascribe one playstyle to other games. I agreed with you guys that system matters. D&D is leans towards DM facing games. However, it does so weakly, not strongly. That allows it to be easily fit into a myriad of playstyles that are both DM and Player facing.

Other systems(not all of them by any stretch) are strongly leaning towards DM or Player facing games. Those can easily be used for playstyles that match the facing of the system, but are less easily used for playstyles of the opposite facing. You can do it, but it's really shoving a square peg into a round hole. You will have to make more system changes than it is often worth.



I've seen many ways to play D&D, and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and others have used it for even more of them if you believe their posts here(and I do). That is pretty strong evidence that it's pretty easy to use D&D for virtually any playstyle you want to attempt.

Um, no, D&D is very strongly DM side. The players have no authority (outside of spells) to introduce or enact new fictions, they must run all declarations past the GM. Read the opening chapter of the 5e PHB for the core gameplay loop and it 1) players describe ther actions; 2) DM decides if the outcome is successful, failure, or uncertain, and, if uncertain, calls for a check named by the DM against a DC set by the DM; 3) the DM narrates the outcome. ALL of the work there is on the DM side of the screen. D&D is just about the definition of a DM facing game.

That doesn't mean you can't have some player input, but the resolution mechanics, core game loop, and the authority over the rules are all built into the DM roll. You just flat out cannot argue that D&D is not a strongly DM facing ruleset, with the notable exception of 4e, which turned all player abilities into "spells."
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Um, no, D&D is very strongly DM side. The players have no authority (outside of spells) to introduce or enact new fictions, they must run all declarations past the GM.

Which only makes it DM side, not strongly DM side. D&D is weakly DM side, because all it takes to switch the facing of the game is for the DM to say, "Okay guys, you guys can create contents by doing X, Y and Z. The game is now primarily in your hands." It's that simple. Were it strongly DM side, you'd have to change many rules for that to happen.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
As far as movement is concerned, which was the example I gave, the only system in AD&D for determining how long it takes to get from A to B is to have a map, to which movement rates are applied. I've never encountered a GM or a supplement that has the requisite maps to apply a fly spell when the movement is overland at 4 mph.
Raises hand.

If the situation is such that I (or the player) need to know precise distances, if I don't already have the requisite map to hand I very soon will; even if it means drawing out then and there a more detailed version of a general map I already have. (even better if it's a shoreline or marine setting; I've about a 6-inch-thick stack of old marine navigation charts of the coast here and if really stuck I'll just pull out one of those that looks close, tell the players to ignore any names of features or places, and use that. :) )

That's 2/3 of a mile per 10-minute turn, or approx 1 km. One of the more detailed maps I have is the one that came with my GH boxed set, and has various villages, hamlets, farmlets etc in the vicinity of GH marked. But it doesn't give the location of all these things to that sort of accuracy.
Fair enough, and sometimes that's all you need in any case. But if there's a reason to go more detailed then why not make a more detailed map for that area?

And here's another example: if the players have their PCs spend X weeks resting, or researching spells, or whatver, then their enemies can presumalby recruit Y new recruits. What is the value of Y? I don't know of any D&D rule that answers that question. (Traveller does have such a rule, in the Mercenary supplement. Whether that makes the game more or less realistic I'll leave as a judgement for others.)
A hard-and-fast rule here wouldn't be all that much use, really, as every situation is different. One BBEG might be in a situation where there's a large pool of potential new recruits around her while another might not have access to any and a third can only "recruit" what she generates herself via Animate Dead. And even then for me it'd come down to some sort of die roll just to inform me what actual recruitment was achieved vs. the best-case scenario for the BBEG.

That said, recruiting or "restocking" is something a DM ought to keep in mind if the PCs leave the area for any length of time.

Suppose X = 2 weeks: the GM can decide that the enemies get a sudden burst of recruits in that time. Suppose X = 10 weeks: the GM can decide that the recruitement pool is dry and the enemies get no more powerful.
Decide, or roll for, whatever; yes - and again a hard-and-fast overall rule would tend to get in the way of this kind of fluidity. A guideline in a specific module, however, where the BBEG's potential recruit pool is known and noted in the write-up, can be of great help.

Luke Crane's Adventure Burner discusses this issue, but because BW is no different from D&D in this particular respect all he has to offer is that the longer the player spend in "downtime", the more liberty the GM has to change the situation adversely without unfairly hosing the players - and he also gives a worked example of growing a nemesis NPC in accordance with the training rules that govern PCs.
Makes sense.

This is what I mean when I say that time is colour. It suggests various possibilities to the GM, but it doesn't actually generate action resolution outcomes.
As this recruitment is all happening "behind the scenes" anyway then for these purposes the suggesting or possibilities is all that's needed. But from the PCs/player side it's still relevant to know how long they spent in town for reasons of calculating total expenses - and for this, learned and codified over far too many years of experience both as player and DM:

The (unwritten) Rule of Settlements: "Any adventuring party entering any new city, town, village or hamlet is almost certainly going to cause, create, or get into trouble while there; and the general odds of such occurrence increase linearly per character in the party and exponentially per unit of time spent."
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Which only makes it DM side, not strongly DM side. D&D is weakly DM side, because all it takes to switch the facing of the game is for the DM to say, "Okay guys, you guys can create contents by doing X, Y and Z. The game is now primarily in your hands." It's that simple. Were it strongly DM side, you'd have to change many rules for that to happen.

You're defining "not DM facing" by saying that the DM can give players permission to add things. Really?

What game would you label strongly DM facing, then? I'm curious what you think meets this criteria.
 


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