A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

pemerton

Legend
Secret Backstory exists in combat (monster statistics)
Monster statistics aren't secret backstory. They're not backstory at all.

A fictional fact about a monster (eg death knights never flee in terror) is backstory, but is it secret? From whom? Not anyone who's read the Monster Manual. In 4e, not from anyone who makes a Monster Knowledge check. This goes to [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION]'s point about conflation.

This entire response rests on the word scene.
A new parameter has now been introduced (at least to me) where it is ok to Say No as long as the scene is not resolved via that No. Have I understood you correctly?
I don't think your notion of saying No is coherent.

If a player makes a roll to hit, and the roll is a failure, the GM (in a system that has such a role of the more-or-less traditional sort - all the RPGs I play do so) will tell the player that the attack failed. No one on this thread has suggested that that is "Mother may I." It's a failed check.

If a player engages in a contested check against the GM rolling from some NPC's stats, the check may fail. And the player may not know in advance what the chance of failure is (depending on game rules and table conventions about keeping GM-side stats secret). If the NPC's stat correlates to the fiction as presented by the GM, this will almost certainly not be characterised by anyone on this thread as "Mother may I." If the NPC's stat is a rabbit from a hat, then maybe it is closer to that, though.

If a player declares an attack with a fear effect against a death knight, and fails, is the player allowed a retry? In most approaches to GMing D&D, the answer is yes (perhaps at the cost of some hp loss due to the Death Knight getting in an extra round of actions, having suffered no hp loss itself due to the failed effect). That's already different from the tea house case, where there is no systematic framework for retries. (We try the teahouse. We try the docks. We try the guardhouse. Etc. That's not retries, that seems like the very paradigm of fishing around for an answer from the GM.)

Does the player know that the attack may fail? If the fiction has been well-narrated (eg undead lack mortal minds) then perhaps. Is the aim of play for the player to solve the puzzle of how to defeat a death knight (like the demi-lich in ToH)? Then perhaps we are in "Mother may I" territory, depending on further details about whether it was a puzzle the players were expected to reason out, or a flat-out guessing game.

Notice that in the 4e DMG example of a Duke who can't be intimidated, (1) there are retries permitted within the framework of the skill challenge (until the 3rd failure occurs), and (2) the information is accessible within the scene, as the outcome of an Insight check (ie an attempt to learn further fiction about the personality/disposition of the Duke).

The various distinctions that I have drawn above may not be interesting or significant to you - I don't know. I think most RPGers who are disinclined to approach resolution through the GM decides approach are likely to find them significant.

I'm not focusing on a few specific games, I'm taking the definition of MMI some posters have understood it and testing it.
If you point to certain GMing practices (deploying monsters with unanticipated immunities as a trick/test for the players) in the context of a particular RPG that is not well-known for its support of non-GM decides play (D&D in its non-4e versions), then I'm not sure what sort of test you are engaging in. Perhaps all you're doing is showing how hard it can be to play D&D in a non-"Mother may I style", because (outside of its 4e version) it doesn't provide robust mechanics for allowing framing to unfold within a scene in a way that is dramatically and narratively satisfying without risking a total hosing of the players (the demi-lich in ToH would be a poster-child example of the absence of such robust mechanics).

After all, I would conjecture that many of the posters who don't care for GM decides in the teahouse case wouldn't be very keen on monster with unanticipated immunity as a trap/test for the p layers either. (I'm not, for instance.) It may not be a coincidence that, of D&D editions, many of those posters seem to prefer 4e, which does have robust mechanics for handling this that other versions of D&D tend to lack.

Anyway, turning to RPGs other than D&D: upthread there were discussions about how new backstory might be introduced in DW by way of moves like Discern Realities or Spout Lore. How would you see your Death Knight example working out in that context? Learning that the Death Knight is immune to one of a PCs' main forms of attack might be a "soft" GM move.

In my Cortex+ Fantasy game, the players learned that a Crypt Thing can teleport people away from it when I spent 2d12 to end the scene, and described their PCs being teleported away to some place deep in the dungeon. The fiction was new to them, but the spend 2d12 to end the scene mechanic is a core rule that they were quite familiar with. A novel immunity would also rest on a core mechanic (spend a Doom Pool die to activate a SFX that permits disregarding Stress, Trauma and Complications having a certain sort of in-fiction origin or character).

Of the non-D&D fantasy systems that I am familiar with the one that comes closest to D&D in its GM builds monsters and sometimes keeps details of them secret from player is Burning Wheel. But there are other features of BW GMing principles and techniques that would mean that immunities, if unrevealed, are unlikely to be unanticipated. For instance: when, in my BW game, the PCs fought zombies, the zombies had a high degree of crit reduction which made them hard to maim and kill. One of the players commented that it felt like fighting zombies. Those "resistances" were not revealed in advance of play, but were not unanticipated. Confrontations in BW (be they martial or social) tend to be deeply grounded in an unfolding fiction very differently from D&D (even 4e), which makes the idea of We just came across a death knight, and fought it, and found it immune to our Fear effects largely inapposite.

This is what underpins [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION]'s request that you identify some games, other than D&D, that you have in mind, when presenting your example of how combat might be framed and adjudicated and are suggesting that it is no different from the teahouse example. (Note that, if the absence of the sect members from the teahouse was deeply grounded in an unfolding fiction then it becomes much less likely that the example actually occurs, as it becomes much less likely that the players would just declare We go to the teahouse to see if any sect members are there and then look to the GM for an answer.)

That word many is troublesome.
Is it your tables' many? Is the RPG's community's many? Is it Enworld's RPG community's many? Is it many for the gaming tables using the POTA system?
What's the trouble? I assert (1) that many tables play Dungeon World and other PbtA games, and (2) that at those tables fudging doesn't occur. Likewise for Cortex+ Heroic. And just to add: fudging in Cortex+ Heroic, played by the rules, is literally impossible because every player at the table can see the dice pools, see the results, and keep track of whether any stress or complication has grown beyond d12 in size (there are no hp totals, secret or otherwise).

Fudging is also impossible in Cthulhu Dark - the only time the GM might roll the dice is to set up a contest for a player's check, and the result of the die roll will be visible on the table where the die has landed. And the only numerical stat that is tracked is Insanity, which is recorded on a die sitting in front of each player. That said, there may not be many tables playing Cthulhu Dark, although that would be a pity as it is a good RPG.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


I'm not sure I'd fully agree that 'most games' have a different mechanics for combat and non-combat. I mean, sure, there are generally certain procedures which exist in RPGs that are there to handle peculiarities of combat, but IME MOST RPGs base the two on an underlying basic resolution system (including D&D since 3e). MANY games don't distinguish at all and use the identical same mechanics in all situations, or only layer on a small amount of stuff. For example Traveler adds a 'range band' and rules for how to change bands onto its existing resolution system, and that's pretty much it (there are IIRC parry rules in old black book Traveler, but as melee combat is unusual in that game they are kinda irrelevant).

Obviously classic D&D is as you state, and some other (especially older) RPGs likewise. These are one case, where non-combat is entirely descriptive and mostly doesn't rely on dice. One of the reasons this has become uncommon as a design is effectively what you are describing. As games became less tests of player skill, and as it became expected for them to work in a wide variety of settings, people found it necessary to have conflict resolution of all types become subject to dice. This is largely a way of adding variety and insuring that players sometimes get what they want even if the referee might not be inclined to give it to them.
.

I wasn't particularly concerned with defending my choice of the the word 'most' here. I honestly don't know what the ratio is. Just a general impression that lots of the games I've played deal with combat differently than non-combat (not saying they don't have rules, just there is more room for fewer rules, less clarity, etc). There will obviously be games that don't fit this description (or we wouldn't be having this discussion). But even games I play that have substantial non-combat rules, tend not to be as deeply codified as combat (or at least I haven't noticed that their non-combat rules are as deeply codified if they are). So I wasn't saying most games have zero resolution system outside combat. Either way, this is probably not very relevant to the actual focus of the discussion. I was just trying to acknowledge a point made by someone on the other side with this statement. This isn't an aspect of the topic I am deeply invested in defending.
 

Apologies, I'm breaking this down.



...But there are other ways to find the sect members.



A DM may also reason why sect members are not at the Tea House.

And as far as I remember, the example used is, the DM adjudication rules that there are no sect members at the TH, not that they cannot keep looking for them in any way shape or form (magic, information gathering - whether it be bribery, seduction, coercion...etc, or visit another location).

In my example the situation at the table would actually be as follows: the players went to the city and looked for the sect specifically at the tea house. I should say they could have said something to me like "We spend the day looking around the city for signs of bone breaking sect" and I would have then called for a City Survival Roll, and they could have found leads or rumors that way (as well as a clear indication they are or are not at that tea house). So technically there was a mechanical solution available (with the caveat that the GM is the one who calls for the roll based on what the players say they are doing). Going to the Tea House specifically was a more efficient and direct thing to do at the time. That took an hour, whereas combing the city would have taken most of the day. And ultimately where Bone Breaking Sect members end up being would be up to me, based on what I know about the sect (how far its headquarters are from here, what they are doing, what kinds of things are presently going on in the martial world, whether they are bound by fate to meet them here, and how dramatically/genre appropriate it is to the present situation the PCs are in---I do consider that as a factor as well). When it comes to Bone Breaking Sect specifically, I have a lot of information, including entries for the leader, his wife, their son, three or four of their major sub chiefs, and stats for the different grades of disciple. I also have information on their allies ,and I know what goals Bone Breaking Sect has been pursuing. I find all this information tends to make it easy for me to have an immediate sense of whether they would be at the tea house or be likely to have contacts there. If I am on the fence at all, I would roll a d10 and assign a chance of different possibilities----i.e 1- the tea house is a front for the sect, 3-4 there is a contact of the sect there, 5 there is a sect member there, 6-10 other stuff is going on and they are not there (and in this case, I think doing that would be fair): I tend to write little tables on the fly in my notebook as I run sessions for this type of situation as it arises if I feel the need to do so.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Ovinomancer, I didn't respond to your rant post upthread as I understand the position the other side is making, I'm just prodding to determine the limits applicable to their MMI definition.
I do not think you do, because you keep presenting arguments that are akin to taking tricks in poker.

Frex, you're fixated on how the stat block of a D&D monster can cause a hard no in combat through secret backstory. This isn't terribly illuminating of anything other than how D&D is a GM-centered game in terms of authority. It certainly doesn't touch on games that aren't GM centered because such things as immunity to fire are either already clearly established in the fiction or are introduced in play, likely as the result of a failure where the GM is thwarting an intent of "kill it with fire."

There are some things in the middle, but they tend to be poor examples and they start trying to shove camels through the eyes of needles. Like 4e, with clear secret backstory in monster writeups that gets explained away as "the players can read the monster manuals so it's not secret it's just backstory" Always found that a very weak argument for backstory not being secret -- if the not secret part depends on out of play homework assignments....

Emphasis mine.
But is not DM-centric adjudication = supply your desired outcome?
Um, yes? I mean, that's the core of the MMI comparison, isn't it? That the GM has all the authority and can force their desired outcome so all player action declarations are requests to the GM needing approval? Fudging is just a less overt means of doing so.
We currently have a thread that is dealing with the 5e sneak attack damage on undead and constructs. Their are a wide range of DM adjudications within that thread. Some go by RAW, others say include oozes and/or elementals only, others say only incorporeal undead should be included, others include the whole lot as per 3.5e, others make a decision on the spot depending on the monster.
These all are DM adjudications to supply a desired outcome.
Ah, I think I'm following a bit better here. You're saying that the GM altering mechanics through houseruling is somewhat analogous to fudging or using secret backstory. I disagree; this comparison is too loose. Firstly, this kind of unilateral houseruling is only possible in strongly GM centered games, so its existence is not a good defense against bad MMI play. Secondly, it's not really analogous if such houserules are made public because then it's part of the mechanics in play. The nature of an enemy is very rarely secret, so players have the ability to choose useful actions.

And that last is an important distinction. Monsters can have immunities to some player actions and this doesn't imply on GM centered adjudication if the knowledge is open and in play.

As you note, transparency is needed, but it's not hard and it doesn't prevent surprises in play. When I run 5e, for example, I'm very open with monster statblocks. I either foreshadow monster abilities strongly or I provide key information openly to characters with appropriate backgrounds or proficiencies. This is because I don't think an encounter is made more fun by the mage using a firebolt on a Death Knight only to fail but rather the mage making a choice knowing her fire speciality is off the table.

Games that are more balanced between GM and player do not revolve around secret backstory. Story Now games and No Myth games actively eschew it. This is because secret backstory breaks the resolution engines of these games. All backstory is either presented in scene framing or generated through play.


But that is my point. Given that, why do we exempt the combat pillar from this particular definition of MMI?
It's not. The GM approval is still in effect. Culturally, though, we tend to play combat differently, but this doesn't change that the GM still has ultimate approval. To reference another thread, the compendium one that's now about shield master, one of the "sides" is entirely arguing from a GM centered perspective in combat, where the GM is the one that determines which mechanics are used to resolve player action declarations, up to and including when and which combat action mechanics are used. That can't happen in a non-GM centered game.

(For what it's worth, I disagree with that poster but find their arguments to be well thought out and consistent with the rules.)
 

Numidius

Adventurer
In my example the situation at the table would actually be as follows: the players went to the city and looked for the sect specifically at the tea house. I should say they could have said something to me like "We spend the day looking around the city for signs of bone breaking sect" and I would have then called for a City Survival Roll, and they could have found leads or rumors that way (as well as a clear indication they are or are not at that tea house). So technically there was a mechanical solution available (with the caveat that the GM is the one who calls for the roll based on what the players say they are doing). Going to the Tea House specifically was a more efficient and direct thing to do at the time. That took an hour, whereas combing the city would have taken most of the day. And ultimately where Bone Breaking Sect members end up being would be up to me, based on what I know about the sect (how far its headquarters are from here, what they are doing, what kinds of things are presently going on in the martial world, whether they are bound by fate to meet them here, and how dramatically/genre appropriate it is to the present situation the PCs are in---I do consider that as a factor as well). When it comes to Bone Breaking Sect specifically, I have a lot of information, including entries for the leader, his wife, their son, three or four of their major sub chiefs, and stats for the different grades of disciple. I also have information on their allies ,and I know what goals Bone Breaking Sect has been pursuing. I find all this information tends to make it easy for me to have an immediate sense of whether they would be at the tea house or be likely to have contacts there. If I am on the fence at all, I would roll a d10 and assign a chance of different possibilities----i.e 1- the tea house is a front for the sect, 3-4 there is a contact of the sect there, 5 there is a sect member there, 6-10 other stuff is going on and they are not there (and in this case, I think doing that would be fair): I tend to write little tables on the fly in my notebook as I run sessions for this type of situation as it arises if I feel the need to do so.
Now I HAVE to know if they actually found Sect members at the tea house, in your game
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I currently lack statistics or other objective data with which to assess this assertion, but I don't feel that it is backed by anything. Obviously SOME people in all places and times get along.
Well, if you lack knowledge about my assertion, then you clearly lacked knowledge about your assertions I was countering. No sure why it's only my claims that need scrutiny.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I'm stating fudging occurs more often than not, at least by those who voted on the threads linked by lowkey13.
And fudging seems irrelevant to discussion for reasons others have discussed already. Bit of a red herring, IMO.

As a reminder, Vincent Baker - from whom the "Say Yes or Roll the Dice" originates - created the Apocalypse World system where the players roll everything. Sadras, how would you say that your introduced discussion of GMs fudging the dice is relevant in that framework of play? :erm:

...But there are other ways to find the sect members.
Even if we accept your thesis of monster statistics as "hidden backstory" (monster weaknesses, immunities, etc.) - and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] does a good job refuting this idea - it seems like there is at least one key difference: repeatability of methods.

When you first face the Death Knight, you may discover through play some of its immunities or resistances. Generally, more often then not, if you face the Death Knight monster again, you don't have to delve into rediscovering the "hidden backstory" of the Death Knight stats. If fire worked previously, then you know that you can fight it with fire again this time. Going into the fight, you will prepare fire to deal with it. And it would certainly be frustrating if the GM forced the players to "rediscover" the hidden backstory of the Death Knight's weakness each time players fought it or if the GM changed the hidden backstory of the Death Knight stats on a whim, declaring previously known successful methods to be ineffective. (If changes occur, GMs usually at least provide visual cues that suggest "this Death Knight is atypical" for players.) This repeatability for players encountering Death Knights is critical because it tests their (player) skill and knowledge about what they have learned, remembered, and utilized from previous encounters.

But let's say that you are looking for the Cult again somewhere else. Instead of being able to repeat your previous method, now you have to engage in renewed "hidden backstory" procedures to discover the Cult.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right, I wouldn't find it productive or sensible to fudge dice. If I am 'playing to see what happens', then why would I force an outcome? If I'm playing as an advocate of the player's having fun and engaging their avowed interests, then there's no sense in which I am concerned if they fail or succeed, all outcomes will produce fun.

For some of us fudging the dice isn't about forcing an outcome. Every so often, maybe once or twice a campaign, my dice are on fire and the players' dice are cold. They like super challenging encounters, but when the dice run like that during one it all but guarantees death. Now I could kill the PCs over nothing but bad luck, but that doesn't seem right to me. So I will fudge a little bit. Not to decide an outcome, but to give them a chance at survival. Maybe they win. Maybe they lose.
 

Remove ads

Top