D&D 5E To boxed text or not to boxed text

[MerricB]

It's not just a matter of organizing information, it's a matter of not including it at all! But I agree, I'm amazed at how much text they'll give to an NPC while managing to not reveal things like... what they even look like, or what their building looks like.

The other trick the S8 adventures have given us is splitting important information over three or four separate pages! (NPC Appendix, the Scene, the Introduction, and some other random place we didn't think to look).

Many of my DMs were amazed when they realised that Wrinkle in the Weave didn't actually take place in Waterdeep, speaking of lacking information. (My review of that displays my full frustration with S8 adventures...)

Cheers!

 

[pemerton]

I think the easier way to avoid "railroading" is to not run plot-based adventures (or "event-based" as the 5e DMG calls them). Location-based adventures with boxed text is just the initial work of describing the environment (first step in the play loop) done for the DM. To the extent that reduces the DM's prep time, I'd say that provides good value.

Even here, for some of the reasons being give by other posters, there can be railroading or something like it (eg assumptions about how doors are opened, who moves where, etc).

This is why I think that letting the GM know about the environment is very important; but the idea should be to support/facilitate/scaffold context-appropriate narration, rather than impose/presuppose a context.

This also has the benefit of being extendable to scenarios/modules other than "dungeons".

 

[jgsugden]

We live ina digital world. It isn't too hard to have it every which way you ight want with community involvement.

 

[pemerton]

Sandboxing, spontaneous creation or whatever you want to call it take more. More time, more skill, more effort, more interest. Not everyone wants to spend that amount of x.

That's not my experience.

Someone recently posted an anecdote on these boards,of GMing two children: the older says to the younger "You scout ahead" and then, when the younger acquiesces, asks "So what do you see?" The younger replies by making up an account of what his/her PC sees - s/he didn't wait for the GM to say it! XP was awarded for this post.

It's quite a while since I've introduced new players to RPGing, but when I've done so they've had clear visions of their PCs, and what they want their PCs to do.

I think most humans, especially those interested in RPGing, have pretty strong creative impulses.

 

[LordEntrails]

That's not my experience.

We all have unique experiences, and they are all valid.

I will repeat, boxed text is a tool and it hurts no one. Hence it is valuable for some. Take it or leave it as you wish, but not having boxed text helps no one.

 

[Immortal Sun]

Am I the only one who thinks this is really mindless hair splitting?

Box text is nice because it can provide theme as well as substance. "The room is poorly lit by dim moonlight entering through a half-covered window on the far side. A light breeze flows through the open window causing the shadows of the covered furniture to move ever so slightly. The only thing uncovered in the room is a large standing mirror which doesn't appear to reflect the room."

Broken down into bullet points you can convey the same relevant information, but completely miss the feeling.
-The room is poorly lit and there is a light breeze coming from an open window.
-There is a variety of covered furniture in the room.
-Only a large standing mirror is uncovered.

If this were any old room, the bullet points are fine. If this was Curse of Strahd, the bullet points would absolutely destroy the feeling.

Reliance on the DM to be creative is not why I play boxed adventures. Reliance on the DM to be creative is why I homebrew.

So if the new approach is to "give the DM some info" and then "tell them to get creative" well I've already got the internet and I think I'm pretty darn creative if I do say so myself.

So what exactly am I paying you for?

 

[Hussar]

And sure. If the dm wants to go ahead and create all that description, what is actually saved by losing the boxed text? Someone is making the narration. Might as well be someone with time and an editor.

 

[AgnostiCleric]

While I do use it I often edit it for more detail and to not break immersion.

 

[Manbearcat]

Maybe. If you have someone to teach you.

<snip>

They need the game to be accessible.

Sandboxing, spontaneous creation or whatever you want to call it take more. More time, more skill, more effort, more interest. Not everyone wants to spend that amount of x.

That's not my experience.

Someone recently posted an anecdote on these boards,of GMing two children: the older says to the younger "You scout ahead" and then, when the younger acquiesces, asks "So what do you see?" The younger replies by making up an account of what his/her PC sees - s/he didn't wait for the GM to say it! XP was awarded for this post.

It's quite a while since I've introduced new players to RPGing, but when I've done so they've had clear visions of their PCs, and what they want their PCs to do.

I think most humans, especially those interested in RPGing, have pretty strong creative impulses.

So LE's post above presupposes a premise.

I think it does that because many/most gamers have lived this premise and haven't been exposed to an alternative.

But I know for a fact that new dogs that don't have to unlearn old tricks can be quick on the uptake of GMing paradigms that don't involve metaplot/setting tourism and GM Force.

Last weekend I sat at a game where I was a PC for the first time in 15 years (the last time was a Dogs in the Vineyard one shot).

The GM was a 52 year old female whose only exposure to gaming was two sessions of 5e under her husband as GM and a one-shot of Dungeon World that I ran for her and a few others.

She wanted to get together with a couple of female friends her age (none of which had RPGed in their lives) and run a game. With her limited exposure to 5e and Dungeon World, she elected to go with DW and asked me to tag along.

There were many reasons why I agreed (two of which were an "all female rpg session" intrigued me and a complete noob GMing intrigued me), but ultimately, I'm her friend and I wanted to be there for her.

We did the same thing we did in the one-shot I ran (standard DW):

- We made characters.
- We made a map together.
- We fleshed out the Bonds of the characters to integrate them with the other PCs and the map we just created.

We agreed on the premise of an opening scene based on one of the sites on the map that one of the ladies had come up with.

Off we went.

No Force.

No metaplot.

No preconceived, high resolution backstory/setting (and no related boxed text).

The game snowballed into a fun 2 hours of emergent fiction.

My contribution (outside of advocating for my PC and answering questions asked of me by the GM as just another player) was only (a) a slight nudge on two occasions of possible questions to ask and (b) a few minor rules clarification. The rest was the creativity of the GM, a gin to calm her nerves, and the conversation with the other (noob) players...and, of course, the system's play-propelling machinery.

She made a few small mistakes (regarding the hardness or softness of moves), but overall the pace was steady, the decision-points were interesting, and the play was compelling.

I've seen this on more than one occasion. If a 52 year old with little to no experience in TTRPGing (and whose exposure to Tolkenesque fantasy is limited) can do this, I'm confident that plenty of others can do the same.

Its extremely accessible. Its just not orthodox. But unorthodox doesn't equal inaccessible.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], such a good example!

Am I the only one who thinks this is really mindless hair splitting?

Box text is nice because it can provide theme as well as substance. "The room is poorly lit by dim moonlight entering through a half-covered window on the far side. A light breeze flows through the open window causing the shadows of the covered furniture to move ever so slightly. The only thing uncovered in the room is a large standing mirror which doesn't appear to reflect the room."

Broken down into bullet points you can convey the same relevant information, but completely miss the feeling.
-The room is poorly lit and there is a light breeze coming from an open window.
-There is a variety of covered furniture in the room.
-Only a large standing mirror is uncovered.

If this were any old room, the bullet points are fine. If this was Curse of Strahd, the bullet points would absolutely destroy the feeling.

Reliance on the DM to be creative is not why I play boxed adventures. Reliance on the DM to be creative is why I homebrew.

So if the new approach is to "give the DM some info" and then "tell them to get creative" well I've already got the internet and I think I'm pretty darn creative if I do say so myself.

So what exactly am I paying you for?

Well, I'll answer for my part (given that I'm advocating dot points over boxed text): I pay adventure designers to think of situations (characters, motivations, places pregnant with phantastical possibility, etc) that I can't think of myself. A good recent example: Jerry D Grayson's contribution to the Prince Valiant Episode Book, The Crimson Bull. No boxed text. Here're the opening paragraphs:

EPISODE TYPE: Assistance. The heroes are asked to help deliver a bull to an ancient pagan ceremony

Begin With: It is a rainy day as the Adventurers travel down a muddy rural path. As the heroes round the bend, the see an overturned cart and scattered bodies of peasants. A single old man lies beaten and moaning against a tree. In his right hand, he holds a silken black rope tied to a large Highland red bull. The bull eyes the Adventurers passively, but does not leave the old man’s side.​

I can't remember how I narrated this opening, but the resulting session was full of atmosphere and suspense and a dramatic resolution in which one of the PC knights converted the pagan wise woman to Christian worship by his demonstration of the power of St Sigobert over an evil spirit. We have only one player in our group who is a 5e player - to quote from my linked actual play post, "he was very impressed with the Crimson Bull scenario, and the uncertainty he felt right up until the end about the nature of the evil in the bull and the way it was going to resolve." He compared it favourably to the 5e treatment of magic and the supernatural.

I think atmosphere created through nicely crafted narration leans on the weakest aspect of RPGing: as narrative experiences, how is RPGing meant to compare to the well-written and edited fiction of a book or a film? Whereas I think that atmosphere created through nicely crafted situation plays to the strength of RPGs, which is providing players with the opportunity to provide their own creative, what-would-I-do-if-I-was-there responses to those situations.

In your Strahd example, what creates atmosphere is not the narration, but the invitations the situation offers to my PC: Do I shut the window and block out the moonlight? (And if I entered the room by flying through the window, does that mean I'm shutting off my own path of escape?); Do I uncover the furniture; and, perhaps most importantly, Do I shatter the mirror?