How many 1st level Fighers can an 11th Level Fighter Kill?

[Quartz]

Are any other old codgers geting vibes of the old Monstermark?

 

[Ancalagon]

Huh, that's weird. Could have sworn...hmm, well I stand corrected. Dueling fighting style is a fair bit better than I thought.

It's arguably the best style, especially in a feat-less game. Feats are required to make 2 handed weapons shine.

 

[Ancalagon]

So, speaking of the horde of mooks...

I very recently ran a game where the party was attacked in a "cathedral" by a large group of 25 cultists (plus a few head cultists, 2 martial artists and one bone devil).

The PCs were 2 monks (level 7), 1 warlock5/fighter3, 1 warlock 8 and 1 cleric 8 (knowledge).

The fighter/warlock used armor of agathy and parry to great effect, killing a lot of mooks. But the most dangerous was the cleric with spirit guardian. The spell lasted only one round but it killed 9 cultists.

The party also had a few NPC allies that helped ward the rear.

It was interesting to see how mass combat like that would work. PCs who got swarmed with a poor AC took a lot of damage. You also have to be well organized as a GM, or else it will bog down. I had the players run their NPC allies to make my job easier.

I also noted how the hp of mooks mattered. A bit more, or less, *really* affects how quickly they can be mowed down. At 9 hp for example, they were auto killed by the fighter or the cleric, but the monks and NPCs often needed 2 hits to put them down. Had they been able to withstand spirit guardian for one round, they would have clobbered the cleric.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Or they think about how this punk just killed Jeb, Bob, and Sven who they have known for years and were friends with. They decide this scum needs to pay and all rush him?
Have you seen how police or military folks react when someone attacks one of their own? Rarely is it to run away. It could be considered just as video game style to play the guards your way.

Except in real life everyone knows that one well placed or lucky bullet and the guy who killed their buddy is going down. In DnD if they started with 12 and the 11th level just killed 3 then there are 9 left, end of next round there are 7 or 8 left and it goes downhill from there because the way DnD works means they are never getting that lucky stab that kills the 11th level fighter with 100 plus hitpoints.. The only reason the math seems to suggest 10 to 12 is a threat is because less than that die when they are constantly replaced so there are always 8 opponents taking swipes and the 11th level does nothing to use terrain to project his rear or flanks.

 

[FrogReaver]

Except in real life everyone knows that one well placed or lucky bullet and the guy who killed their buddy is going down. In DnD if they started with 12 and the 11th level just killed 3 then there are 9 left, end of next round there are 7 or 8 left and it goes downhill from there because the way DnD works means they are never getting that lucky stab that kills the 11th level fighter with 100 plus hitpoints.. The only reason the math seems to suggest 10 to 12 is a threat is because less than that die when they are constantly replaced so there are always 8 opponents taking swipes and the 11th level does nothing to use terrain to project his rear or flanks.

Or the 10 level 1 fighter pull out bows, and spread out so that the level 11 can't get to more than 1 of them at a time....

IMO, If you want to get into tactics the 10 low level fighters have a lot more better options.

 

[Aenorgreen]

Except in real life everyone knows that one well placed or lucky bullet and the guy who killed their buddy is going down. In DnD if they started with 12 and the 11th level just killed 3 then there are 9 left, end of next round there are 7 or 8 left and it goes downhill from there because the way DnD works means they are never getting that lucky stab that kills the 11th level fighter with 100 plus hitpoints.. The only reason the math seems to suggest 10 to 12 is a threat is because less than that die when they are constantly replaced so there are always 8 opponents taking swipes and the 11th level does nothing to use terrain to project his rear or flanks.

Do they know that? Since HP are a combination of luck, will, and skill, many tables describe attacks only causing serious damage strikes on the blow that reduces to zero. So they can still be looking for that well placed or lucky hit. Even if you describe HP as pure meat, are there enough of those high level people around that they know there are people like that? Do those rules apply to everything? If that 100+ HP character were captured drunk, for example. The next morning he is strapped down to a block for an execution. Does the axe bounce of his neck a few times without causing serious damage? If that were the case the guards would always be running away. Any two-bit crook can dual-wield and get lucky to drop two guards on the first round. I guess everyone flees then.

 

[alienux]

How many 1st level Fighers can an 11th Level Fighter Kill?

https://youtu.be/O6rHeD5x2tI?t=43

 

[Cleon]

3e had swarms (and hordes? for size M participants, I think it was), and so does 5e, so I see no objection to the observation.

Yup, the 3E equivalent are called "mobs" and appear in Dungeon Master's Guide II (2005), although the mob subtype debuted in Dungeon #113 (2004) with significantly different rules. Such mobs can be made of Small, Medium or Large creatures.

 

[Garthanos]

Yup, the 3E equivalent are called "mobs" and appear in Dungeon Master's Guide II (2005), although the mob subtype debuted in Dungeon #113 (2004) with significantly different rules. Such mobs can be made of Small, Medium or Large creatures.

I actively support the use of these mechanics both for roleplaying sensibility and mechanic ease. I do have to engage differing descriptions of defeat may decide different body counts depending on personalities of the group but hey that is fun and allows you to characterize the hoards differently.

 

[Cleon]

I actively support the use of these mechanics both for roleplaying sensibility and mechanic ease. I do have to engage differing descriptions of defeat may decide different body counts depending on personalities of the group but hey that is fun and allows you to characterize the hoards differently.

Yes, the mob rules are a decent way of making a group of standard 1 HD creatures an encounter that a mid-level 3E party will pay some notice too. Under RAW a couple of score goblins would have trouble even scratching many 8th-10th level characters.

I prefer the Dungeon #113 version were mobs can have different Hit Dice. The DMG2 one were all mobs have 30 HD doesn't seem right. A mob of 1st level aristocrat elves ought to have different HD than a mob of 3 HD standard bugbears.

Unfortunately the Mob Subtype appendix in that magazine did not include guidelines on how to determine said Hit Dice. Like 3E swarms it appears to be down to the whim of the designer (How else to explain why a centipede swarm has 9 HD but a spider swarm 2 HD despite them both being made up of Diminutive Vermin and monstrous spiders having twice the HD of monstrous centipedes).

The two examples of mobs in that Dungeon's Foundation of Flame adventure are a 40 HD CR 9 mob of 1-HD humanoids and a 30 HD CR 8 mob of 3-HD light horses, suggesting the rule is Large Mobs have 10 times the HD of their component creatures and Medium Mobs 40 times the HD.

That would give a mob of bugbears 120 HD though, which seems WAY too much. It'd also mean a mob of 4 HD ogres would have the same 40 HD as the aforementioned elven aristocrat mob, which feels equally wonky.

If I was doing a "mob template" I'd maybe make a standard mob of Small and Medium creatures have 20 times the component creature's HD instead of 10 but add the option for Colossal mobs with twice the HD of a standard Gargantuan mob. I also like that the Dungeon version gave the mobs a Strength boost from the base creatures and added a Str-based damage bonus to the "mob attack".