D&D 5E Abandoning attunement and scaling back concentration

[Tony Vargas]

Just casting a single spell a round, and not being able to load up on buffs before hand means not even an archmage will last ten seconds against a mid-level party.

I am curious why one-and-two-thirds rounds is your benchmark? I'd think 3 rounds (18 sec) would be the benchmark.

Of course, an 'arch-mage' NPC/monster needn't be built to mimic the abilities (or restrictions) of a high-level PC. You could give him some Legendary lov'n, for instance, maybe Lair actions that apply in his wizard's tower?

sometimes you need a spellcaster to be truly threatening on his own, solo, alone.

5e doesn't really make a lot of provisions for 'Solos,' but Legendary & Lair actions go a fair way. Though the numeric advantage will still tell, you should be able to make it more than two-thirds of the way through that second round.

 

[werecorpse]

I think I’ve got this right as the list of spells that I’ve either removed concentration, made it able to be removed by casting the spell using a spell slot 1 higher or able to be removed using a spell slot 2 higher (when electing to remove concentration by up casting the caster doesn’t get the other benefits of upcasting ie when casting fly using a 5th level slot you can either affect 3 people with concentration or one without - but using a 6th level slot you can get 2 without)

Concentration removed: Incendiary Cloud, Flesh to stone, Mordenkainens Sword, storm of vengeance, weird

+1 level: Alter Self, Barkskin, Blade Barrier, all detects, enhance ability, enlarge, entangle, evards, fear, gaseous form, Giant insect, Globe of invulnerability, Hold monster/person, Hunger of Hadar, Hypnotic Pattern*, Insect Plague, Invisibility, Levitate, Major Image, otilukes Resilient sphere, ottos dance, phantasmal killer, polymorph*, protection from energy, Ray of enfeeblement, reverse gravity, Silent image, sleet storm, slow, spider climb, spike growth, stinking cloud, stoneskin, sunbeam, Tasha’s, telekinesis, vampiric touch, all wall spells, web, witch bolt

+2 levels: Beacon of hope and all the Aura spells, Blur, Calm emotions, circle of power, crusaders mantle, Expeditious retreat, Eyebite, Faerie Fire, Flame blade, flaming sphere, fly, fog cloud, Greater invisibility, Gust of wind, Haste, Heroism, Magic weapon, moonbeam,

I’ve asterisked hypnotic pattern because I’m alert to the possibility it might be too good at +1 and polymorph because I am alert to the T-Rex use of this spell and I have also made the beast limit cr of 1/3 caster level but I’m thinking of making it the spell slot expended ie to turn into a cr 7 giant ape costs a 7th level slot as most 5e spells scale by slot used not caster level.

 

[jayoungr]

Basically, archmage-level NPCs need to ignore PHB restrictions to be able to fulfil their roles as badass high level casters. Just casting a single spell a round, and not being able to load up on buffs before hand means not even an archmage will last ten seconds against a mid-level party.

In my experience, legendary actions and legendary resistances fill in this gap. Legendary actions mean a boss caster can cast up to four spells per round (and you could have more than three legendaries), while legendary resistance means the boss is guaranteed to make at least that many saving throws against whatever the party throws at him/her, just as if buffs were stacked.

Of course, an 'arch-mage' NPC/monster needn't be built to mimic the abilities (or restrictions) of a high-level PC.

That too. Legendary actions being one way of doing this, since PCs don't get those.

 

[5ekyu]

I think I’ve got this right as the list of spells that I’ve either removed concentration, made it able to be removed by casting the spell using a spell slot 1 higher or able to be removed using a spell slot 2 higher (when electing to remove concentration by up casting the caster doesn’t get the other benefits of upcasting ie when casting fly using a 5th level slot you can either affect 3 people with concentration or one without - but using a 6th level slot you can get 2 without)

Concentration removed: Incendiary Cloud, Flesh to stone, Mordenkainens Sword, storm of vengeance, weird

+1 level: Alter Self, Barkskin, Blade Barrier, all detects, enhance ability, enlarge, entangle, evards, fear, gaseous form, Giant insect, Globe of invulnerability, Hold monster/person, Hunger of Hadar, Hypnotic Pattern*, Insect Plague, Invisibility, Levitate, Major Image, otilukes Resilient sphere, ottos dance, phantasmal killer, polymorph*, protection from energy, Ray of enfeeblement, reverse gravity, Silent image, sleet storm, slow, spider climb, spike growth, stinking cloud, stoneskin, sunbeam, Tasha’s, telekinesis, vampiric touch, all wall spells, web, witch bolt

+2 levels: Beacon of hope and all the Aura spells, Blur, Calm emotions, circle of power, crusaders mantle, Expeditious retreat, Eyebite, Faerie Fire, Flame blade, flaming sphere, fly, fog cloud, Greater invisibility, Gust of wind, Haste, Heroism, Magic weapon, moonbeam,

I’ve asterisked hypnotic pattern because I’m alert to the possibility it might be too good at +1 and polymorph because I am alert to the T-Rex use of this spell and I have also made the beast limit cr of 1/3 caster level but I’m thinking of making it the spell slot expended ie to turn into a cr 7 giant ape costs a 7th level slot as most 5e spells scale by slot used not caster level.

I see a lot of double dipping in there - where upticking spell slots already boost those spells and you now add additional bonuses for whst seems to be no cost?

I would ask for clarification...

If I want hold person or to target 3 targets that is a level 4 spell slot used currently.

Under your new regime, would that also be concentration free for nothing? Or would casting those at 3 targets mean you require a 5th level dlot?


Additionally, I see the list and the broad categories and see a pretty much idea-killer for me - lack of tough choices.

One of the impacts of the concentration effect that hits is requiring some tough choices in play - not so much regarding double up in combat either but in long term buffs.

If you want to maintain a long term buff slot, enhanced ability for instance, you have to for that time not avail yourself of a lot of the information stuff like detect magic, see invis, any rituals and of course guidance cantrip.

Finally, the costs here seem very off, way too low. If I were gonna add in a uptick to drop concentration I would borrow the major image pattern - +3 levels for duration gain and lack of concentration.

 

[Bacon Bits]

As far as attunement, I've considered just reworking certain items. The overwhelming majority of items that require attunement don't actually need it.

Consider:

Armor of Resistance: It takes a full minute to exchange armor with another character. Exactly how are you going to abuse this?

Gloves of Missile Snaring: What, am I going to pass these off to someone between rounds?

Ring of Feather Falling: The item that is virtually useless in 99% of games, and in the 1% of games where it's useful, it's only useful in 5% of the encounters. No, your anecdotal game does not count. What player is going to prepare for an adventure wearing this if they have any other alternative?

Ring of Jumping: If you change the effect to only work while the ring is worn, then the attunement requirement really doesn't make sense. What situation are we worried about here? Jumping a crevasse, throwing the ring to the next guy in the party, and then they jump a crevasse? Couldn't that just be solved by the strongest member carrying everyone else? It just makes no sense.

Like I get that it's meant to limit the power of the party stacking tons and tons of items, but if your DM wants to give out a ton of magic items, then at some point magic items stop being rewards because the party can't use them. The party will never employ fun little magic items that almost never come up but can be rewarding or powerful when they're actually relevant. Nobody is picking the Staff of the Python over a Ring of Resistance. Nobody is going to attune the Wand of Enemy Detection when they have something like a Staff of Healing to ensure they have access to. It's frustrating and stupid that the game forces you to pick between a mechanical benefit and a fun and interesting item.

I also have problems with just the power level of many items. Sword of Sharpness is, mathematically, only moderately better than a +1 sword. Again, I understand that a +0 weapon is still powerful, but it's still frustrating and stupid that the game appears to trick the players by giving items really powerful looking abilities that are actually much worse when you read them.

---

As for concentration, I would say that you can choose to cast a spell of 1st through 5th level using a spell slot 2 levels higher than normal for that spell. If you do so, you gain no other benefit of casting the spell at higher level and you can concentrate on that spell and cast another spell that requires concentration without breaking concentration. However, the spellcaster suffers a -5 penalty to any Concentration saving throws for each additional spell concentrated on. Note that when concentration is lost, any and all spells being concentrated on are lost.

For example: Torsten the 9th level Clerc casts bless with a 3rd level slot. He selects up to 3 targets and the spell requires concentration, but he may cast an additional spell that requires concentration. The next round, Torsten casts bane as a 3rd level spell. Again, he chooses three targets, and again this spell requires concentration, and Torsten may cast an additional spell that requires concentration. Torsten's Concentration saving throws are now at -5. The next round, Torsten casts insect plague as a 5th level spell. The spell requires concentration, and Torsten may not cast any more spells that require concentration. Additionally, Torsten makes all Concentration saves at -10 because he is concentrating on three spells.

I might restrict certain spells from this -- namely, invisibility and improved invisibility -- but I'd want to test it first.

 

[werecorpse]

I see a lot of double dipping in there - where upticking spell slots already boost those spells and you now add additional bonuses for whst seems to be no cost?

I would ask for clarification...

If I want hold person or to target 3 targets that is a level 4 spell slot used currently.

Under your new regime, would that also be concentration free for nothing? Or would casting those at 3 targets mean you require a 5th level dlot?


Additionally, I see the list and the broad categories and see a pretty much idea-killer for me - lack of tough choices.

One of the impacts of the concentration effect that hits is requiring some tough choices in play - not so much regarding double up in combat either but in long term buffs.

If you want to maintain a long term buff slot, enhanced ability for instance, you have to for that time not avail yourself of a lot of the information stuff like detect magic, see invis, any rituals and of course guidance cantrip.

Finally, the costs here seem very off, way too low. If I were gonna add in a uptick to drop concentration I would borrow the major image pattern - +3 levels for duration gain and lack of concentration.

As I stated in my post that you replied to the upcasting costs stack, to hold person against 3 people with no concentration requires a 5th level slot.

Lack of tough choices - the caster still has limited spell slots, especially high level spell slots, and see invisible isn’t concentration anyway.

Cost too low? Maybe, I haven’t seen it over used as casters still value that higher level slot, which is what one would expect if the cost was too low.

 

[CapnZapp]

I am curious why one-and-two-thirds rounds is your benchmark? I'd think 3 rounds (18 sec) would be the benchmark.

Of course, an 'arch-mage' NPC/monster needn't be built to mimic the abilities (or restrictions) of a high-level PC. You could give him some Legendary lov'n, for instance, maybe Lair actions that apply in his wizard's tower?

5e doesn't really make a lot of provisions for 'Solos,' but Legendary & Lair actions go a fair way. Though the numeric advantage will still tell, you should be able to make it more than two-thirds of the way through that second round.

That I said ten seconds is a figure of speech.

But have you seen the Archmage stats. He could definitely be cut down in ten seconds flat.

I don't buy that an Archmage is merely any wizard capable of casting a level 9 spell. And I dislike the idea he better turn himself into a monster (say, a lich) or surrounding himself with mooks before becoming capable of threatening the heroes.

That's just not the D&D way. In order to properly represent past stories, 5E really needs an Archmage overlay, where you get to pick off the PHB restrictions one by one.

 

[CapnZapp]

In my experience, legendary actions and legendary resistances fill in this gap.

I want high level Wizards (at the very least) to be able to embark on the part of being an Archmage. I believe it is good for the game, and not disruptive to game balance.

Quite the contrary, I question the current value of becoming a level 17 Wizard. I'm all for dissolving LFQW but I think 5E went too far. Not when it comes to low- and mid-level Wizards. When it comes to defining what the Wizard apogee is.

 

[werecorpse]

I want high level Wizards (at the very least) to be able to embark on the part of being an Archmage. I believe it is good for the game, and not disruptive to game balance.

Quite the contrary, I question the current value of becoming a level 17 Wizard. I'm all for dissolving LFQW but I think 5E went too far. Not when it comes to low- and mid-level Wizards. When it comes to defining what the Wizard apogee is.

Your kidding aren’t you? Look at how many extra spell slots a wizard (or any caster) gets by being 17th level as opposed to 11th. (Sarcasm intended)

 

[CapnZapp]

Your kidding aren’t you? Look at how many extra spell slots a wizard (or any caster) gets by being 17th level as opposed to 11th. (Sarcasm intended)

Okay then