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D&D 3E/3.5 3E and the Feel of D&D

For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, the big picture was to return the game to its roots, reversing the direction that 2nd Edition had taken in making the game more generic. The plan was to strongly support the idea that the characters were D&D characters in a D&D world. We emphasized adventuring and in particular dungeoneering, both with the rules and with the adventure path modules. We...

For 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, the big picture was to return the game to its roots, reversing the direction that 2nd Edition had taken in making the game more generic. The plan was to strongly support the idea that the characters were D&D characters in a D&D world. We emphasized adventuring and in particular dungeoneering, both with the rules and with the adventure path modules. We intentionally brought players back to a shared experience after 2E had sent them off in different directions.

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To keep the focus on adventuring, we eliminated several elements from 2E that, we thought, tended to take players off course. In particular, we removed evil PCs, individual XP awards, strongholds, and the class name “thief.”

Thieves were renamed “rogues” to take the emphasis off of them going off on their own to steal random items from NPCs. Doing so usually amounted to stealing spotlight time and the DM’s attention away from the other players. If thieves stole from other PCs in order to be “in character,” that was even worse.

Starting in original D&D, top-level fighters and clerics could build strongholds, and we dropped that. If you have had fun playing your character as an adventurer for level after level, why would you suddenly want to take on non-adventuring duties at 9th level? These strongholds were styled as benefits, so if you didn’t start one, you were losing a bonus that you’d apparently earned. Running a stronghold was also an individual activity, not something a party did. Worse, if players wanted their characters to run strongholds for fun, why force them to adventure until they reached 9th level first? In my personal 3E campaign, I gave the party the option to rule from a fort on the frontier when the characters were 6th level, and they took it. It was a project that they undertook as a party, like the rest of their adventuring careers.

We got rid of individual XP awards, which rewarded different classes for doing different things. Fighters got bonus experience for killing monsters, for example, and thieves got experience for stealing things. It looked good on paper, but it rewarded characters for pursuing different goals. We were trying to get players to pursue the same goals, especially those that involved kicking open doors and fighting what was on the other side.

Evil characters in D&D can be traced back to Chainmail, a miniatures game in which playing an evil army was routine. Having good and evil characters together in a party led to problems and sometimes hard feelings. In a lunchtime 2E campaign at Wizards, an evil character sold fake magic items to other characters; the players who got scammed were not amused. During a playtest of 3E, one of the designers secretly created an evil character who, at the end of the session, turned on the rest of us. It was a test of sorts, and the result of the test was that evil characters didn’t make the experience better. 3E established the expectation that PCs would be neutral or good, one of the rare instances of us narrowing the players’ options instead of expanding them.

Personally, one part of the process I enjoyed was describing the world of D&D in its own terms, rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. When writing roleplaying games, I enjoy helping the player get immersed in the setting, and I always found these references to the real world to be distractions. In the Player’s Handbook, the text and art focused the readers’ imaginations on the D&D experiences, starting with an in-world paragraph to introduce each chapter.

In 2nd Ed, the rules referred to history and to historical legends to describe the game, such as referring to Merlin to explain what a wizard was or to Hiawatha as an archetype for a fighter. But by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source. For example, 2E took monks out of the Player’s Handbook, in part because martial artist monks have no real place in medieval fantasy. We put them back in because monks sure have a place in D&D fantasy. The same goes for gnomes. The 3E gnome is there because the gnome was well-established in D&D lore, not in order to represent real-world mythology.

We also emphasized adventuring by creating a standard or “iconic” adventurer for each class. In the rule examples, in the illustrations, and in the in-world prose, we referred to these adventurers, especially Tordek (dwarf fighter), Mialee (elf wizard), Jozan (human cleric), and Lidda (halfling rogue). While AD&D used proper names to identify supremely powerful wizards, such as Bigby of the spell Bigby’s crushing hand, we used proper names to keep the attention on adventurers, even down to a typical 1st-level fighter.

For the art in 3E, we took pains to have it seem to illustrate not fantasy characters in general but D&D adventurers in particular. For one thing, lots of them wore backpacks. For the iconic characters, we wrote up the sort of gear that a 1st-level character might start with, and the illustrations showed them with that gear. The illustrations in the 2E Player’s Handbook feature lots of human fighters, human wizards, and castles. Those images reflect standard fantasy tropes, while the art in 3E reflects what you see in your mind’s eye when you play D&D.

Descriptions of weapons in 2E referred to historical precedents, such as whether a weapon was use in the European Renaissance or in Egypt. With almost 20 different polearms, the weapon list reflected soldiers on a medieval battlefield more than a heterogenous party of adventurers delving into a dungeon. We dropped the historical references, such as the Lucerne hammer, and gave dwarves the dwarven warax. And if the dwarven warax isn’t cool enough, how would you like a double sword or maybe a spiked chain?

The gods in 2E were generic, such as the god of strength. We pulled in the Greyhawk deities so we could use proper names and specific holy symbols that were part of the D&D heritage. We knew that plenty of Dungeon Masters would create their own worlds and deities, as I did for my home campaign, but the Greyhawk deities made the game feel more connected to its own roots. They also helped us give players a unified starting point, which was part of Ryan Dancey’s plan to bring the D&D audience back to a shared experience.

Fans were enthusiastic about the way 3E validated adventuring, the core experience that D&D does best and that appeals most broadly. We were fortunate that by 2000 D&D had such a strong legacy that it could stand on its own without reference to Earth history or mythology. One reason that fans were willing to accept sweeping changes to the rules was that 3E felt more like D&D than 2nd Edition had. Sometimes I wonder what 4E could have accomplished if it had likewise tried to reinforce the D&D experience rather than trying to redesign it.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish
Jonathan is one of my favourite designers out there. I don't need to list his credits but some of the highlights for me were his work in Ars Magica, Everway (can we get an article on Everway please!) ,13th Age. The list goes on and on. I'm very appreciative of his influence on this industry.

In this instance i have to disagree with him on a couple of points though.



2nd ed was my first edition, and in terms of the art it's still my favourite. It's not just nostalgia (although i'm sure that plays a part). It's the variety. So many different art styles, so many different fantastic situations depicted, that inspired me so much. They spurred you on to make D&D your own, to make it match your vision.

I must admit that i found the art direction of 3rd ed. alienating. It had something anachronistic (almost futuristic) about it that put me off completely. And there was no escaping it. Everything was illustrated that way. So many straps! So as a Dm i would need to fight against it, since it didn't match my vision for the game - i didn't run it in the end. (One notable exception was Lockwood's depiction of dragons in 3rd ed which was incredible). I remember other people that i talked to at the time, long time 2nd ed players and DMs, felt the same way.

This made me appreciate how much of an influence the art direction exerts in me in the choice of running a game.
I will only look into the mechanics and the story if the art gets the ok (very personal thing, i'm well aware). At least 3rd ed made me conscious of that fact. (It's a very personal thing but this is why i discarded 3rd,4th and Pathfinder. And why i bought into 5th ed (mostly ok), 13th age, Trudvang Chronicles, Forbidden Lands and Symbaroum).

With regards to the reference to earth history and mythology, again that was a feature for me. My group was isolated, so we never felt kinship to D&D tropes like oriental style monks in medieval towns or half orcs in taverns. And the more the source material used those as its core assumptions the less useful it was to us.

Having said all that, i will be forever grateful to 3rd ed for doing away with THAC0 :)
Thac0 was inane and cancerous. Im grateful too. If american friends ask me what im thankful for this thanksgiving (very strange holiday) i will promptly say "thank vecna thac0 is a forgotten secret never to plague the minds of even partially sane men ever again."
 

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Schmoe

Adventurer
3e was a revelation to me. It was everything I loved about D&D, but more. Now I could make characters that had real differences that were expressed mechanically in the game, more than just: this fighter uses a sword and shield, and this fighter uses a two-handed sword. While I've tried other systems over the years, 3rd edition (well, 3.5) is the one that I've stuck with.

I've been introducing my kids to D&D for the last few years. I started them on Basic, then I started a 3.5 campaign with some friends that my oldest (16) joined. He also has been playing in a campaign with his group of friends that uses 5e. He recently decided he wanted to start DMing, and he chose to run using 3.5. For all it's warts, it's still a great system that stirs the imagination in many ways.

Thank you, Mr. Tweet, for sharing some of the thoughts that went into making it!
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
a
Thac0 was inane and cancerous. Im grateful too. If american friends ask me what im thankful for this thanksgiving (very strange holiday) i will promptly say "thank vecna thac0 is a forgotten secret never to plague the minds of even partially sane men ever again."
ahhhhh there are still people playing 2E and 1E and loving it, as well as becmi b/x and odd
 

JeffB

Legend
My shared experience was with the people I played (and, for some, still play) with. However, that's not something that keeps marketers happy.

The interests of players and of a game company are not the same.

Bingo.

WOTC has taken Gary's AD&D business model amped it up on steroids (and shifted focus off standardized rules for convention style play) to produce a "shared experience WE want the community to have". This is because they realized in 3E, the Genie was let out of the bottle with D20/OGL. Rules can't make them money- IP does- So, they are going to make sure everyone shares the same IP experience- through adventures, settings, and proper names (volos, mordy, Avernus, etc.) whether that is TTRPG, Streams, CRPGs, or whatever format. D&D is it's own brand of self referential fantasy They are never going to go back to promoting D&D as "your game, use your imagination and do with it what you will" (they will mention it in passing- like the 3.0 DMG "you can do that, but...")

Do I blame them? No. Absolutely not. They are a business. Coke wants you to drink Coca Cola products only. Apple wants you to buy Apple products.

Do I want that? No. Absolutely not. I'm not into supporting the kind of cookie cutter community shared experiences of the WOTC 5E business model. IMO this is just antithetical to what D&D is all about- it also stifles the community over time because it generates a majority of "canon lawyers" in said community who oppose anything unofficial.

I'll take the

AD&D 2E -variety is the spice of life- Here's a whole bunch of different ways to play the game, if you want- or do your own thing (and we will make support products for you as well)

and

OD&D-do your own thing- make your own rules, you don't need US to tell you what to do in your game

philosophical design/product mindsets.
 
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Arnwolf666

Adventurer
I definitely love 2E and everything that came before. and I think thAC0 going away was a good thing. It’s just not a deal breaker for me to play on an older edition with it. It’s pretty simple first grade math you can do in your head. I still prefer the roll under mechanic for proficiencies. But 3E and 3.5 were great editions in general. I think it is the edition where multiclassing got carried away, which is something many people still love about it. 5E did a good job of scaling back MC with room for improvement. Get rid of the possibility of sorlock and sorcerer/paladin combos and that would help.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Thac0 was inane and cancerous.

I'm glad it's gone too, but it's just grade school arithmetic....

Im grateful too. If american friends ask me what im thankful for this thanksgiving (very strange holiday) i will promptly say "thank vecna thac0 is a forgotten secret never to plague the minds of even partially sane men ever again."
The 2E designers certainly thought of getting rid of ACs going downward. They were told not to by management. Compared to the tables that were hidden in the 1E DMG, it was a model of transparency!
 

JeffB

Legend
I really don't understand the issue with THAC0. It's basic math. THAC0= 16. Foe is AC4, 16-4 is 12, roll a 12 or better, Big whoop. Figure it out for each melee and missile weapon., out I on your character sheet, never worry about it again.WAY better than O/BX/A D&D charts.

It's easier and faster than totaling up D6' for a fireball, or WEG SW or T&T, or sorting through counting successes in Dice Pool games.

I prefer modern ascending AC, but THAC0 is a non issue when it comes to problematic/time consuming rules or mechanics in older editions or modern ones like turning undead in 5e or figuring out round to round bonus' and penalties or durations in 3/4E
 

Arnwolf666

Adventurer
I wonder sometimes if it’s that the younger generation isn’t taught to do math without calculators. That’s not an insult to their generation, just educational system. Even when I was in high school taking Math we weren’t allowed calculators.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sort of a side note relavant to an earlier post of mine. My circle of role players (includes a couple dms so we all get pc time) probably averages one the line between NG and TN when the campaigns and pcs are aggregated. We have used a fair amount of evil pcs but have used just enough more good ones that its slightly pushed in that direction from TN. That said weve played enough of every alignment that i feel confident that when a group is flush with realistic psychology it comports pretty well to reality. I think both in d&d and the real world, between the polarizing effects of good, chaos, law, and evil, evil is actually the least likely polar persuasion to harm capacity for cooperation. Good is the most likely. With law and chaos its about equal where chaos is likely to cause it in short term fashion and law is more likely to cause it in long term long lasting fashion. Obviously neutrality is a completely different ball game from the rest in at least some ways. But the reason evil seems not to have the tendancies of the rest is that self consciously evil people cannot comvince themselves they are righteous. They inherently are the most advanced at theory of mind as they are thrust into situations where it would both be benefircial and for them less disagreeable to manipulate and take advantage of people to their own ends and comprehending others as they are not hindered from pursuing that. Its not a perfect comparison bit consider the evolution of predators and omnivores. They are generally more intelligent than their prey and more capable of theory of mind because their way of life pressures that they must or starve. So they see others points of view. And are not as easily blinded to the big picture. In this way, evil is the most similar to neutral in its intellectual, social, and emotional capabilities but with a few less limitations, like giving a crap quite as often about the fall out. But just as capably aware of it. Again, this is assuming you only consider an actual evil aligned person to be self awarely evil. Just thought i wanted to add onto my earlier thinking.

Completely disagree but don’t think this is the thread for it
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I wonder sometimes if it’s that the younger generation isn’t taught to do math without calculators. That’s not an insult to their generation, just educational system. Even when I was in high school taking Math we weren’t allowed calculators.

I think you were just above average at math. Much less to do with being allowed a calculator in algebra imo.
 

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