D&D 3E/3.5 Why 3.5 Worked

Are there any examples of an rpg that is not broken?
i would argue that saying 3/3.5 is broken is only true for constructively/creatively lazy/impeded individuals/groups. Anyone/any group that puts the time and thought in to set up some table rules and norms completely avoids anything resembling "brokenness" in that edition. Its not a broken edition. Its just the edition that requires the most brain power to properly function. Some people classify that as "broken".

Furthermore, "unbalanced" is not "broken" any more than "balanced" is. Too much balance or lack of it is. A game is honestly only "unbroken" if there is balance but not too much balance. If its too balanced things become dry and fake feeling as well as stagnation and other problems. Brokeness happens when you dont hit the happy medium. But most people dont really see that.
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
i would argue that saying 3/3.5 is broken is only true for constructively/creatively lazy/impeded individuals/groups. Anyone/any group that puts the time and thought in to set up some table rules and norms completely avoids anything resembling "brokenness" in that edition. Its not a broken edition. Its just the edition that requires the most brain power to properly function. Some people classify that as "broken".

I don’t think that’s even remotely true. I enjoyed that edition quite a lot. I do think that the more that was added, the more difficult it became to run. Or perhaps, the more effort was required for the same end result.

I don’t have anything against complexity. I just want complex design to be rewarding. The increase in complexity for 3.X as it went along did not result in a corresponding increase in enjoyment.

It’s just a matter of preference. There’s no need to try and put people down for having a different view.
 

I don’t think that’s even remotely true. I enjoyed that edition quite a lot. I do think that the more that was added, the more difficult it became to run. Or perhaps, the more effort was required for the same end result.

I don’t have anything against complexity. I just want complex design to be rewarding. The increase in complexity for 3.X as it went along did not result in a corresponding increase in enjoyment.

It’s just a matter of preference. There’s no need to try and put people down for having a different view.
Not putting people down. Im outlining a simple truth. 3.x was never broken for those who took the time to draw lines on what they would or wouldnt include. If any of it was taken as an insult i assure that that is not how it is meant.

You have to put a lot of brain power in at the start of 3.x though to decide where your boundaries are.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
...
Not putting people down. Im outlining a simple truth. 3.x was never broken for those who took the time to draw lines on what they would or wouldnt include.
Heh. "This shattered vase was never broken for those with the patience and cyanoacrylate to glue it together."

Or, to spin it the other way, "the point of a puzzle isn't to start in one seamless piece."
 

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Its BEAUTIFUL o_O
 

Celebrim

Legend
I don’t have anything against complexity. I just want complex design to be rewarding. The increase in complexity for 3.X as it went along did not result in a corresponding increase in enjoyment.

No, it didn't. Because it was the wrong sort of complexity. It didn't actually aid in telling any new stories or open up any new game play. Very little of it actually even provoked creativity. Because so much of it was tied to PrC's, it was highly inflexible and didn't offer up nearly as many choices as it could have in the same amount of space. A lot of it was redundant. You don't actually need 68 different direct damage spells each with slightly different fluff about how it is dealing it's damage. You don't actually need 7 PrC's focused around being a better archer, or sixteen different ways to boost caster level. You had a ton of different classes that all boosted different ways to damage things, but which generally didn't add any new archetypes to play or styles of gameplay.

The right sort of complexity allows you to play games that you couldn't have played without it, but which at the same time can be completely ignored if you aren't playing that game. So for example, a really good mass combat system allows you to have compelling game play around the PC's leading armies into battle, which is a story that might be difficult to support mechanically otherwise. The existence of a mass combat system adds a ton of complexity, but as long as you don't decide, "Hey, I want to run a session around mass combat.", you can avoid it completely. The same goes for good rules for handling vehicles, or good rules for running chase/evasion scenes, or good rules for running non-lethal contests, or good crafting rules, or on and on and one.

For all the hardback books that WotCpublished, they never actually added much gameplay to the game. It was more like a game I used to play years ago (back when it was deep and interesting) called 'World of Tanks', where most of the additions to game play were just new very slightly different tanks to drive (and grind, and grind, and grind) - because that didn't require many resources to create.

Pathfinder actually did a little bit better job of trying to explore that space, it's just a shame so few of the minigames it introduced to extend the game are well thought out and interesting (or even compatible, as it it tended to introduce a minigame per region or adventure path, and not a coherent hole for the whole setting).

D&D almost always spends the majority of its rules on spells. But it's really interesting how little game play the spells outside of core actually added. In fact, they tended on the whole to destroy more gameplay than they created. They either tended to either be more or less the same spell reskinned with different fluff, as in the case of the hundreds of different attack spells; or else, they tended to be simplistic win buttons that solved some problem that previously required a member of a different class. What they didn't do was generally provide any depth to magic or being a spellcaster or any world building or numinous or mythic feel.

In short, you can add complexity by making your game broad, or you can add complexity by making your game fiddly and redundant. The 3e designer went the fiddly and redundant route.
 

No, it didn't. Because it was the wrong sort of complexity. It didn't actually aid in telling any new stories or open up any new game play. Very little of it actually even provoked creativity. Because so much of it was tied to PrC's, it was highly inflexible and didn't offer up nearly as many choices as it could have in the same amount of space. A lot of it was redundant. You don't actually need 68 different direct damage spells each with slightly different fluff about how it is dealing it's damage. You don't actually need 7 PrC's focused around being a better archer, or sixteen different ways to boost caster level. You had a ton of different classes that all boosted different ways to damage things, but which generally didn't add any new archetypes to play or styles of gameplay.

The right sort of complexity allows you to play games that you couldn't have played without it, but which at the same time can be completely ignored if you aren't playing that game. So for example, a really good mass combat system allows you to have compelling game play around the PC's leading armies into battle, which is a story that might be difficult to support mechanically otherwise. The existence of a mass combat system adds a ton of complexity, but as long as you don't decide, "Hey, I want to run a session around mass combat.", you can avoid it completely. The same goes for good rules for handling vehicles, or good rules for running chase/evasion scenes, or good rules for running non-lethal contests, or good crafting rules, or on and on and one.

For all the hardback books that WotCpublished, they never actually added much gameplay to the game. It was more like a game I used to play years ago (back when it was deep and interesting) called 'World of Tanks', where most of the additions to game play were just new very slightly different tanks to drive (and grind, and grind, and grind) - because that didn't require many resources to create.

Pathfinder actually did a little bit better job of trying to explore that space, it's just a shame so few of the minigames it introduced to extend the game are well thought out and interesting (or even compatible, as it it tended to introduce a minigame per region or adventure path, and not a coherent hole for the whole setting).

D&D almost always spends the majority of its rules on spells. But it's really interesting how little game play the spells outside of core actually added. In fact, they tended on the whole to destroy more gameplay than they created. They either tended to either be more or less the same spell reskinned with different fluff, as in the case of the hundreds of different attack spells; or else, they tended to be simplistic win buttons that solved some problem that previously required a member of a different class. What they didn't do was generally provide any depth to magic or being a spellcaster or any world building or numinous or mythic feel.

In short, you can add complexity by making your game broad, or you can add complexity by making your game fiddly and redundant. The 3e designer went the fiddly and redundant route.
I agree that they went fiddly and redundant (as you put it) but the sum total broadness of late 2e through 3.5 was tge broadest the game got too. It was over shadowed by fiddly ness but i dont think it ever really got broader.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Not putting people down. Im outlining a simple truth. 3.x was never broken for those who took the time to draw lines on what they would or wouldnt include. If any of it was taken as an insult i assure that that is not how it is meant.

You have to put a lot of brain power in at the start of 3.x though to decide where your boundaries are.

Well, I’d say that in general, calling people “constructively/creatively lazy/impeded” is a bit of a put down. I don’t think such a term applies to anyone based on their edition preference.

I get your point about establishing limits on what content was allowed. I think that would solve or limit many of the flaws of the edition taken as a whole.

But that does not mean that from a design standpoint, the edition as a whole was not flawed. Your decision to limit what content was allowed is not a defense of the 3.X design.

I do agree with you that effort was needed to make the game work well. But I don’t know if the return on that effort was greater than what you’d get from a simpler system.

I also don’t know if I’d compare the brain power required to make an effective character build to the same kind we tend to use during play. Or maybe I should say, the kind we may use during play.

I’ve recently looked at Five Torches Deep. It’s a stripped down version of 5E. It has the four core classes, and then the other classes are all subclasses of those main four. It has fewer character options for players to select.

Looking at this streamlined version, I wonder how it will play. Haven’t had a chance to find out yet....but I feel like the shift in focus from character options and builds will result in more creative play.

So maybe it’s not a question of the amount of brain power a game requires, but in where that effort goes?

I don’t think there’s one answer to that, but I feel it’s a question to consider.
 

Well, I’d say that in general, calling people “constructively/creatively lazy/impeded” is a bit of a put down. I don’t think such a term applies to anyone based on their edition preference.

I get your point about establishing limits on what content was allowed. I think that would solve or limit many of the flaws of the edition taken as a whole.

But that does not mean that from a design standpoint, the edition as a whole was not flawed. Your decision to limit what content was allowed is not a defense of the 3.X design.

I do agree with you that effort was needed to make the game work well. But I don’t know if the return on that effort was greater than what you’d get from a simpler system.

I also don’t know if I’d compare the brain power required to make an effective character build to the same kind we tend to use during play. Or maybe I should say, the kind we may use during play.

I’ve recently looked at Five Torches Deep. It’s a stripped down version of 5E. It has the four core classes, and then the other classes are all subclasses of those main four. It has fewer character options for players to select.

Looking at this streamlined version, I wonder how it will play. Haven’t had a chance to find out yet....but I feel like the shift in focus from character options and builds will result in more creative play.

So maybe it’s not a question of the amount of brain power a game requires, but in where that effort goes?

I don’t think there’s one answer to that, but I feel it’s a question to consider.
Im saying that most problems with 3.x essentially reduce down to having chosen to be that way.

Im saying its a choice. Not a malady.

Of course i suppose saying people may have made choices is viewed by some as a put down.

I just view it as pointing out what i think actually went wrong. Because i dont think 3.x goes wrong without choosing one or multiple of those qualifiers.

At least ive never seen that to not be the case. And people have a natural tendancy to choose one of those qualifiers. So its a struggle against human nature.
 

Well, I’d say that in general, calling people “constructively/creatively lazy/impeded” is a bit of a put down. I don’t think such a term applies to anyone based on their edition preference.

I get your point about establishing limits on what content was allowed. I think that would solve or limit many of the flaws of the edition taken as a whole.

But that does not mean that from a design standpoint, the edition as a whole was not flawed. Your decision to limit what content was allowed is not a defense of the 3.X design.

I do agree with you that effort was needed to make the game work well. But I don’t know if the return on that effort was greater than what you’d get from a simpler system.

I also don’t know if I’d compare the brain power required to make an effective character build to the same kind we tend to use during play. Or maybe I should say, the kind we may use during play.

I’ve recently looked at Five Torches Deep. It’s a stripped down version of 5E. It has the four core classes, and then the other classes are all subclasses of those main four. It has fewer character options for players to select.

Looking at this streamlined version, I wonder how it will play. Haven’t had a chance to find out yet....but I feel like the shift in focus from character options and builds will result in more creative play.

So maybe it’s not a question of the amount of brain power a game requires, but in where that effort goes?

I don’t think there’s one answer to that, but I feel it’s a question to consider.
also im not saying people are naturally impeded or lack brain power. Im saying people seem to have a natural tendancy to not take these extra steps ahead of time.
 

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