How to address racism in a fantasy setting without it dragging down the game?

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
No I do not want to change the behavior of the players nor lecture them. I only want to have this philosophy in the game, as one of many, to use for plots if the players show any interest in it or the story wanders into that direction.

As I noted - if you introduce them to the idea that they are possibly/probably really committing serial mass murder, they will change their behavior. That is, unless the characters are already sociopaths, and don't care, in which case raising the point is moot, so why bother.

For most players, this isn't like a small philosophical point they can quibble over without many hard feelings. It isn't like, "If I rob from the rich, exactly how much do I have to give to the poor to still feel morally superior?" It is, and I repeat, the question of SERIAL MASS MURDER.

Still I am quite surprised at the pushback I got here. Why do people react so strongly to the idea that killing an elemental who only minded his own business should morally be considered to killing a dwarf who did the same? Likewise killing orc raiders would be similar to killing gnome raiders...

Well, in one sense, I don't actually care - I have run campaigns of various games both ways - it is a campaign style choice, basically. I just push back on changing the base expected morality in the game after characters are already made. They should have been aware of the general value of their moral stances before they committed to them. Bait-and-switch isn't fair.

My current Ashen Stars game is all about the ethical questions - and the players were informed of this before they began, and their characters were created with this in mind.

Asides:

In the typical cosmology, the fire elemental is a spirit temporarily summoned from another plane. The PCs know they are not fundamentally capable of actually destroying it. In "killing" it, it is sent back to its home just a bit earlier to go on its way - the PCs can think of it as actually doing the poor thing bound against its will a favor.

If a bunch of gnomes are out raiding peaceful villages, yeah, they get the same treatment as orcs. I don't think you're getting pushbacks on that. It is more the question of whether, when a tribe of orcs move in, you know that they're going to start raiding, and have been raiding previously, and whether you are morally justified in being proactive about it, andwhether any orc found with the bunch can be considered complicit.
 
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GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Yes, killing gnome raiders would absolutely be morally equivalent to killing orc raiders. But how often have you run into scenarios with gnome raiders? And does it really fit the morality of gnomes to be off raiding, plundering, raping, murdering and enslaving their neighbors?

And further, I at least am reacting strongly . . .
Hmm. Thought @Umbran would step in on this strong reaction. Eh, there's still time...

By the way, the "morality of gnomes" probably shouldn't be that far from the morality of humans. And we all know that humans are capable of raiding, plundering, raping, murdering, and enslaving. Is that a tangent? I think that's a tangent...

The same way good and evil is assigned in the real world.
And lets be honest, in nearly all D&D adventures it comes down to PCs killing things labled
evil without remorse, regret or consequences.
There are consequences, and they're usually good. Like get treasure, and save the...whatever.

No I do not want to change the behavior of the players nor lecture them. I only want to have this philosophy in the game, as one of many, to use for plots if the players show any interest in it or the story wanders into that direction.
But for that I would have to represent it as neither comical or fun threatening. And based on some of the extreme reactions in this thread I sadly have to agree with you that it is apparently a bad idea to even mention. A pity.
I've got it. And it's also a generally applicable solution to GM problems. Put an NPC in the party. Who hates...okay strong word...who rejects racism. A paladin would be good. So this character can brandish the idea in front of the party, but they don't really have to worry about it, because it's just one voice of many.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
By the way, the "morality of gnomes" probably shouldn't be that far from the morality of humans.

From the 5e PHB:

Humans - Alignment. Humans tend toward no particular alignment. The best and the worst are found among them.

Gnomes - Alignment. Gnomes are most often good.

This is consistent with the traditional presentation over time - gnomes are generally Good aligned, humans average out to Neutral.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
What I'm reacting to is an implicit statement that unless your game features moral relativism you are doing it wrong, and indeed it's possible that in real life you are immoral yourself.

Mod Note:

Um... maybe, before you react super-strongly to an implicit statement, you should double check that it is intended? If it isn't explicit, it isn't necessarily what the author meant to say.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Hmm. Thought @Umbran would step in on this strong reaction. Eh, there's still time...

???

By the way, the "morality of gnomes" probably shouldn't be that far from the morality of humans. And we all know that humans are capable of raiding, plundering, raping, murdering, and enslaving.

Agreed that humans are fully capable of evil. My Scottish ancestors at one point considered cattle thievery half-sport and half-profession. The Clans did a whole lot of evil toward one another. And my Norse ancestors, well let's just say there was a lot of praying for deliverance from their evils.

As for the "morality of gnomes", they don't really exist so what their morality should be is a matter of opinion. Ought it be very similar to that of humans? Well, probably, if you are expecting gnomes to behave rather much like humans, and if gnomes are biologically rather much like humans, then you'd pretty much expect that they'd have similar morality.

In D&D gnomes have generally been presented as rather better than humans. More benevolent. Less going out and pursuing cattle thievery as sport.

Is that a tangent? I think that's a tangent...

Not sure.
 

Derren

Hero
As I noted - if you introduce them to the idea that they are possibly/probably really committing serial mass murder, they will change their behavior. That is, unless the characters are already sociopaths, and don't care, in which case raising the point is moot, so why bother.

For most players, this isn't like a small philosophical point they can quibble over without many hard feelings. It isn't like, "If I rob from the rich, exactly how much do I have to give to the poor to still feel morally superior?" It is, and I repeat, the question of SERIAL MASS MURDER.

That depends on the player I guess. If you be honest, every soldier or mercenary commits serial mass murder too. But they do it because for them they have a justification for it. The only change that the philosophy I am thinking about would introduce is that belonging to a specific race would not count as a justification anymore for people following it.
Well, in one sense, I don't actually care - I have run campaigns of various games both ways - it is a campaign style choice, basically. I just push back on changing the base expected morality in the game after characters are already made. They should have been aware of the general value of their moral stances before they committed to them. Bait-and-switch isn't fair.

My current Ashen Stars game is all about the ethical questions - and the players were informed of this before they began, and their characters were created with this in mind.

As I said, I do not intend to make this "the one true religion" nor preach to the PCs to follow it. If they want to engage with this organization in any way, good or bad, its their decision. I just want to present it in a way which makes it seem plausible and does not automatically result in some responses seen here which precludes any for of serious interaction from the beginning.

Asides:

In the typical cosmology, the fire elemental is a spirit temporarily summoned from another plane. The PCs know they are not fundamentally capable of actually destroying it. In "killing" it, it is sent back to its home just a bit earlier to go on its way - the PCs can think of it as actually doing the poor thing bound against its will a favor.

If a bunch of gnomes are out raiding peaceful villages, yeah, they get the same treatment as orcs. I don't think you're getting pushbacks on that. It is more the question of whether, when a tribe of orcs move in, you know that they're going to start raiding, and have been raiding previously, and whether you are morally justified in being proactive about it, andwhether any orc found with the bunch can be considered complicit.

Fire elementals can also be encountered naturally and not summoned. Either way, I used them just as an example for "sentient, non humanoid monster usually not attributed the same "human rights" than others".

That one can kill raiding gnome raiders just like you would orcs in that situation is pretty normal. What would change is that if orcs, or other nonhumanoid monsters were living in a mountain not bothering anyone, even when they would show up on the evil radar, you would have to treat them the same way as you would treat reclusive gnomes.

I've got it. And it's also a generally applicable solution to GM problems. Put an NPC in the party. Who hates...okay strong word...who rejects racism. A paladin would be good. So this character can brandish the idea in front of the party, but they don't really have to worry about it, because it's just one voice of many.

That sounds both too preachy and possibly comic relief to be honest.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That depends on the player I guess. If you be honest, every soldier or mercenary commits serial mass murder too.

I don't think very many soldiers are going to agree with that description.

So, if you want to address the topic of racism in a game without "dragging it down", the fundamental thing you have to do is have a clear, coherent, non-contradictory, and reasonable definition of what you mean by "racism". If you introduce a group with a belief system that is contradictory or non-functional and poorly realized for the game world, that's going to be at best comic relief. If you further insist that the belief system of this group is the morally right one via a DM blessing implicit or explicit, then yes that will drag the game down.

The only change that the philosophy I am thinking about would introduce is that belonging to a specific race would not count as a justification anymore for people following it.

So when this hypothetical cult of believes defines "a specific race" what do they mean by it? Do animals count? Animals in the D&D setting can talk ('speak with animals') and are presumably as sentient as the animals of myth and fantasy. Do plants count? Plants in the D&D setting can talk ('speak with plants') and are therefore sentient. If those races don't count under their racial definition, why are you allowed to murder plants and animals in order to consume them?

When they are talking about "a specific race", what counts - orcs, beholders, mind flayers, red dragons, vampires, or glabrezu? Are all of those treated equally? Are all presumed innocent until proven guilty? If not, then why not?

The belief system will need to seem plausible and believable. Either you will need to have a setting where everything is biologically and mythologically similar enough to humanity that it's plausible to suggest nothing is born evil and anything raised in a different culture could adopt the viewpoints of that culture - in which case you'll need to probably get rid of things like mind flayers, vampires, and demons. Or else, you'll need to have a setting where you have already established a completely different mythos behind pretty much everything. For example, you'll probably need to rid yourself of the various different types of dragons and of traditional D&D origin stories for dragons. And you'll probably need to come up with some sort of reason why dragons and other races war against each other other than that dragons are greedy, evil, engines of destruction that incarnate the violence of the natural world. For example, if you have dragons with Tolkien's Middle Earth back story, then it is literally nonsense to talk about dragons not being evil, or to act as if you are being moral by giving a worm the benefit of the doubt and a chance to redeem itself.

You can't pull that off in the middle of a game where you've already established certain truths.

Once you get to something like "orcs" though, if you haven't established a backstory for orcs, you can assert that orcs aren't inherently evil and that if you raised an orc with kindness and respect in a different culture that they could grow up with different values. I mean basically, Klingons are "orcs in space", and Star Trek pulled that switch without too much complaint.

If you are going to do that, try not to do it as a retcon (like Star Trek). One of the rules of a consistent campaign is that if it has a long history, nothing the players are likely to think of hasn't happened before. So work out what has happened in the past with orcs that were good, why it happens so rarely, or at least explain that it only seems rare to humans because mostly humans interact with the sort of orc that is a violent psychopathic bandit.

Either way, I used them just as an example for "sentient, non humanoid monster usually not attributed the same "human rights" than others".

Why in the heck would a living tower of flame have human rights? A fire elemental might have "fire elemental rights" accorded to it according to the dignity and nature of a fire elemental. One of those rights might be the right to life, which could only be forfeited in self-defense. But it's also not completely clear that a fire elemental is much more than the Plane of Elemental fire equivalent of a cow or a tiger, which is going to get you back to, do cows or tigers have rights, and if so what sort?

But it's not at all clear that a fire elemental has a right to liberty on the prime material plane. Maybe they have a right to live freely on the plane of fire, and I for one would consider it wrong to kill a fire elemental that was just minding its own business on the plane of fire, but if you acknowledge that a living tower of flame has a right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness on the prime material plane does that mean fire elementals have a right to burn? Societies that promote "equality" better think all these ramifications through if they don't want to seem silly.

That one can kill raiding gnome raiders just like you would orcs in that situation is pretty normal. What would change is that if orcs, or other non-humanoid monsters were living in a mountain not bothering anyone, even when they would show up on the evil radar, you would have to treat them the same way as you would treat reclusive gnomes.

At the heart of this, I'm not sure that this is a change at all. Like I can't recall a situation where the PC's were like, "Let's go somewhere where no one has been bothering anyone and kill what we find there even if they are peacable, just because they are orcs." That's not actually the situation that I find provokes the need for clarification. The actual situation tends to be the orc baby problem. If you find orc babies, what do you do with them. And that is the situation where a human society promoting the potential good in everything does actually show up and have a role, but it's also a situation where, if you suggest, "Yeah orcs are Neutral just like humans. They can be equally good or bad.", you might need to retcon your entire setting.

And finally, none of this has much to do with "racism". If you want to tackle racism in your game as a serious problem, you can do it much more honestly, more directly, and less problematically by having a "Quigley Down Under" type scenario where one ethnic group of humans (or dwarfs or whatever) hires the the party to kill the "bad" ethnic group of humans (or dwarfs or whatever). That way you aren't making unfortunate comparisons and you aren't being ridiculous by assuming that this thing that is so obviously inhuman still deserves human rights no matter what that thing is. Or at the very least, you won't get side tracked.

Not that that isn't fun. I've had a lot of great conversations and arguments about "werewolf rights" with my daughter. But "werewolf rights" doesn't really address racism, and it would be really unfortunately to make werewolves analogous to some real world group.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No real world discussion please...

In most fantasy games racism is the core component which allows adventurers to go out, kill things labled evil or just "powerful and inhuman" and take their stuff.
I wonderd how you could bring this up in a game, not as a central theme but more of a side story like a church or organization which fights for complete equality or similar goals, without it being disruptive, unfun or comical as being allowed to kill certain things and take their stuff without reprecussions is kinda the central theme in many RPGs.
I could of course resort to only use mindless undead etc. as enemies, but thats really only avoiding it.
Just to be clear, I do not want to lecture the players or make a statement, but just to have this as another facette of the world
In my games, the accepted racism you describe doesn’t exist outside of fascist stand-in groups, and cultures that are looked upon poorly by other cultures for having slaves or whatever.

it’s simply not okay to go kill kobolds just for being kobolds. Killing any sentient race is the same as killing any other sentient race, including your own.
 

And based on some of the extreme reactions in this thread I sadly have to agree with you that it is apparently a bad idea to even mention. A pity.

I would hesitate before basing any decisions off the reactions of anonymous people on an internet forum. Reactions around here may or may not have any bearing on how your actual players will respond.

Still I am quite surprised at the pushback I got here. Why do people react so strongly to the idea that killing an elemental who only minded his own business should morally be considered to killing a dwarf who did the same? Likewise killing orc raiders would be similar to killing gnome raiders...

Most of the gameworlds that I've GMed since the early 1990s have eschewed the idea of "racial alignments" or that sort of thing. There may be some ravening monsters that nobody regrets killing, even some vile demons or cthulhuesque horrors, but most sentient species exist in a political/diplomatic/military matrix with their neighbors and competitors. There are histories there with acts that might be defined as "evil" or as "good" or as a confusing muddle. There's no way to find out if a particular culture is good or evil other than to ask around, observe, and judge for yourself. Even the gods would give you different answers depending on their particular goals and alliances.

As GM, I see my role as one of crafting interesting conflicts and characters within a plausible imaginary world. The players engage with the world and interpret it through their own ethical filters and the lens of their character's ethos. I'm not in charge of deciding who or what's good or evil; I just decide what the NPCs are doing and leave the moral judgments to the PCs (and other NPCs). This allows for a lot of moral complexity and grappling with issues like racism and colonialism. Some players and campaigns actively pursue such plotlines. Others aim to steer clear of too much moral murk.

It's also a good idea to put some mud on the good races as well.
Making everything good is hard while making everyone sort of a murky grey is easier.

I personally love the murk!

In my games, the accepted racism you describe doesn’t exist outside of fascist stand-in groups, and cultures that are looked upon poorly by other cultures for having slaves or whatever.

it’s simply not okay to go kill kobolds just for being kobolds. Killing any sentient race is the same as killing any other sentient race, including your own.

Yeah, that's about how it works in my world(s). (And in most of the games I've been a player in for the past 30 years.)
 

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