Is the DM the most important person at the table

[Imaro]

The operative phrase there is your game. I think you've fairly described a type of game for sure. D&D and other games that still show pretty heavy simulationist roots tend to require a lot of prep and a pretty high degree of information control/mastery. That description doesn't hold for all RPGs though.

I'm not talking about prep or information control/mastery. I'm speaking to numbers

I don't know how useful it is to rely on anecdotal experience for a general description. I've always found it hard to find players that are 'right' for the kind of game I want to run, but that doesn't inform my opinion of 'importance'. Finding players generally isn't hard of course, and even easier the more common the game you're looking for players for, but finding players isn't the same as finding the right players. So, again, you describes a certain subset of D&D style game well, but fall short when that description is pressed onto a wider selection of samples. I guess it depends on what you're trying to define. We're in the General Forums, so I was trying to spread a wider net than just D&D and games specifically like it.

I don't know how useful it is framing this discussion and roles in terms of games the vast majority of those in the hobby have never and will never play. BitD may be easier to run compared to D&D and yet D&D still produces magnitudes more people willing to run it than Blades does.

EDIT: In other words why are we entertaining the outliers (The sum of which together probably don't make up 5-10% of the player/GM base) as some sort of rebuttal or baseline for discussion?

 

[Fenris-77]

If you want to define the importance of the DM in a D&D game that's fine, I'm not forcing you. But D&D isn't all of roleplaying, regardless of what's popular or not. I'm not talking about niche games either - stuff like BitD, PbtA more generally, Dresden - these are all popular and award winning games.

Also, numbers don't define importance, the system defines numbers, and the game system sets the initial parameters for the division of authority at the table, along with the social contract governing that table. You example only covers one slice of the possibilities there, and no argument from popularity changes that.

 

[MGibster]

Yeah, I'm confused about the pushback on assumption, as there's nothing to say that assumptions can't be based on experience or even that assumptions are bad things.

Again, you’re using words in a manner that is isn’t typical. An assumption is accepting something as truth without evidence. I’ve provided at least one concrete reason why the GM is the most important person at the table. It wasn’t an assumption on my part.

But, if you feel you can't engage the ideas because of the words used, I can't gainsay you on that. Happy gaming!

Word choice is an important part of communication.

 

[Imaro]

If you want to define the importance of the DM in a D&D game that's fine, I'm not forcing you. But D&D isn't all of roleplaying, regardless of what's popular or not. I'm not talking about niche games either - stuff like BitD, PbtA more generally, Dresden - these are all popular and award winning games.

Those are niche games...

Also, numbers don't define importance, the system defines numbers, and the game system sets the initial parameters for the division of authority at the table, along with the social contract governing that table. You example only covers one slice of the possibilities there, and no argument from popularity changes that.

I feel like those beating this drum are akin to someone claiming that everything we know and use to classify a mammal is only a slice of the possibilities because... platypus.

There has to be a baseline in any discussion and sorry but D&D is the baseline for the hobby through sheer dominance. It's great to note these exceptions but ultimately if 99% of the hobby goes one way it's probably alot more relevant to examine that and use it as your baseline vs claiming a game that accounts for 1% or less of the hobby's playerbase means that baseline is faulty.

 

[Fenris-77]

Oookay. You've made it clear where you're at with the hobby. Cool. You can continue defining role playing just in terms of D&D if that's what gives you feels. Hyperbole isn't a great tool when it's that obvious though, just a parting rhetorical gift from me to you.

 

[Imaro]

Oookay. You've made it clear where you're at with the hobby. Cool. You can continue defining role playing just in terms of D&D if that's what gives you feels. Hyperbole isn't a great tool when it's that obvious though, just a parting rhetorical gift from me to you.

Nope as I stated earlier I'm playing BitD right now but if someone asked me to explain or give an example of how a roleplaying game works... I'm going to lean on more popular fare for my explanation because it makes more sense.... In other words I just realize we've been going in circles because there's almost always an exception to anything.

 

[Fenris-77]

A whole range of different games isn't 'an exception', and D&D, popular as it is, isn't 'the rule'. I don't suspect we're going to agree though, and that's fine.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Again, you’re using words in a manner that is isn’t typical. An assumption is accepting something as truth without evidence. I’ve provided at least one concrete reason why the GM is the most important person at the table. It wasn’t an assumption on my part.




Word choice is an important part of communication.

Assumption is treating simething as if true without proof, not withoit evidence. Your definition equates assumption to wild guess, which isn't true as assumptions are often built on incomplete evidence and function quite nicely everyday. For instance, one assumes that crossing traffic is stopped when your light is green. We have no evidence this will remain true unless we observe crossing traffic through the entire light, at which point we've lost our opportunity to go. It's also a reasonable assumption, in that we.have lots of prior evidence that it most often true, and maybe immediate evidence that traffic we can see has, indeed, stopped. But, no proof until the light is done or we cross. This occurres every day among myriad assumptions that are evidence or experience based.

I mean, Google is right there, if you don't believe me.

 

[Lanefan]

I think a lot of that list comes from the unstated belief that it's the GM's job to police the players -- that the players will not be acting in a disciplined fashion and will present action declarations that require extra work on the GM's part to vet and untangle from abuse. But, that's a player problem, not a GM duty.

Player problem, or player mandate?

A player is there to advocate for his/her PC; part of that advocation naturally includes trying to push the borders of the rules in favour of said PC. It's the GM's duty to make sure the rule borders remain intact - the GM is among other things a referee.

And, having to be the one that knows the rules best at the table is also part of the assumption that it's the GM's job to police players. You need to know the rules so that you can make sure the players follow them properly. But, that's a player problem, again, not a GM required duty.

See above.

I, personally, have a cleric in the group I run for and I couldn't tell you at all how Turn Undead works, or what things that PC has that might interact with that. I know she can Turn Undead, but that's it, and I really don't think about it at all. If it comes up in a session, like it did a few months ago, I'm often surprised, because I forgot about it. My player knows her rules, and follows them, and I don't have to think about it at all.

Nice in theory, and if it works in practice for you all's good. But in many situations this would or could eventually lead to trouble via the player misinterpreting a rule in such a way as to favour the PC; and the GM has to be on top of this.

If a question comes up, I'll tell the player to read the rule and report back while I move on to other things. OR, I'll make a ruling, and we'll address it later. I don't need to know these rules to run a game -- those rules are player facing, it's their job to know them and apply them through their action declarations. I'm there to frame the scenes and adjudicate the actions. Those rules I know very well. Luckily for me, even in 5e, they're pretty straightforward.

This comes down to personal preference: I know as a player the fewer player-facing rules and mechanics I have to deal with the better I like it.

The worst part of running D&D is running the monsters, especially if they have a ton of special abilities. But, again, as GM, I pick the monsters, so that's entirely under my control as GM as to how much difficulty I add to myself. Same with campaign design, or adventure design. I pick my workload. If I ever feel like my players are dictating my workload, it's time to have a serious discussion with the group. If players are just there to do the minimum effort show up and toss dice and be taught/led through the rules by me, or constantly declare actions that require my vetting, we have a problem, and it's not that GMing is hard.

Campaign's gonna get mighty boring if all they ever fight are Orcs and Goblins because the GM doesn't want to add more difficulty to his/her workload by pulling out a greater variety of foes.

And part of being a good player is to declare actions that force the GM to do some vetting: it's called thinking outside the box.

Part of the issue in this thread is the assumption that players have very little responsibility to the game and that it's the GM's job to compensate for this. Nope. That's on you if your take that burden up, it's not a task inherent to GMing.

Players have a responsibility to the game as regards their PC(s), including the required bookkeeping, coming up with characterizations, etc., and of finding ways to interact with the setting.

The GM's responsibility is to give them a setting to play in and, at most tables, some things to do there. Part of the setting piece is the rules that govern said setting, while most of the things-to-do piece usually consists of designing (homebrew) or obtaining and learning (published) adventures. IMO these responsibilities considerably outweigh those of the players; though fulfillment of both sets is required in order for the game to function.

All involved have a responsibility to show up to the games and not be asshats. And bring beer.

 

[Lanefan]

If you want to define the importance of the DM in a D&D game that's fine, I'm not forcing you. But D&D isn't all of roleplaying

No; but it's most of it, which means if discussions like these don't largely revolve around it they're not much use for the vast majority in the hobby.