Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Cap'n Kobold]

So: It looks like a psion, in comparison to a wizard, may be capable of much fewer general effects, but more power and control over the effects that they can do.
Do people think that a psion focused on telepathy, empathy, and mental control (and very good at those,) would be even worse than a wizard at telekinetic feats? Better? About the same?

- That sounds pretty close to the sorceror concept - Particularly when you bear in mind that psionic powers are often depicted to run in families in the fiction that they appear in.

Perhaps a good basis for a psion would be starting with a sorceror with less general power and spells known. Then put more power and into the subclasses, and a solid spell list representing their discipline.

 

[Maxperson]

So: It looks like a psion, in comparison to a wizard, may be capable of much fewer general effects, but more power and control over the effects that they can do.
Do people think that a psion focused on telepathy, empathy, and mental control (and very good at those,) would be even worse than a wizard at telekinetic feats? Better? About the same?

I think that there should be multiple specialties like in 3e. You can opt to focus in telepathy, metabolic, etc. and your powers should reflect that specialization.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think that there should be multiple specialties like in 3e. You can opt to focus in telepathy, metabolic, etc. and your powers should reflect that specialization.

That doesn't answer the question asked though.

Take the psion with the speciality of Telepathy, Empathy and mind control.

Are they worse than the wizard at Telekinesis? Better than the wizard at Telekinesis? About on par with the Wizard with Telekinesis?

Essentially, how does the Psion stack up when they aren't focusing on a specific specialty to other ways to accomplish that same set of abilities.

 

[Maxperson]

That doesn't answer the question asked though.

Take the psion with the speciality of Telepathy, Empathy and mind control.

Are they worse than the wizard at Telekinesis? Better than the wizard at Telekinesis? About on par with the Wizard with Telekinesis?

I don't see why a Psion specializing in Psychokinesis needs Telepathy and vise versa.

Two possible ways I see of doing this is, 1) that you don't get anything in the other specialties, but you are supreme among "casters" in your specialty. A Psychokinetic Psion would be better a telekinesis than a Wizards and a Telepathic Psion would be better at Telepathy than a wizard. And 2) same as above, but give them a few abilities at the same or less than a wizard outside of their specialty, to the kineticist might have weaker telepathy and the telepath some weaker telekinesis.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think that there should be multiple specialties like in 3e. You can opt to focus in telepathy, metabolic, etc. and your powers should reflect that specialization.

I personally don't like "metabolic" psionics. (With an emphasis on "personally don't like." Just expressing my aesthetic preferences here. Let me know if I need to repeat those caveats a few more times.)

I realize there's some history behind "self-enhancement" psionics, but it feels too superhero-ish to me. Turning superior mental powers into superior physical powers is...cheesy. (Imagine the inverse, a Barbarian ability: "Your rage takes physical form, allowing you to cast fireball." Cheesy.)

The general categories of psionics that I think are cool are:

• Telepathy
  • Simple communication
  • Mind reading
  • Mental assault (psychic damage)
  • Mind control
• Telekinesis
  • Lifting & throwing
  • Bending/breaking
  • Controlling others' actions, without controlling their minds
  • Heat metal (and maybe other materials)
• Projection
  • Entering other's dreams
  • That thing that Eleven does

There may be other things. But here's the problem...

I don't think these sub-disciplines are the right dimension to base subclasses on. To me, these disciplines are comparable to fighting styles. 5e designers made a conscious decision to NOT base martial subclasses on the kind of weapon you use, neither a specific weapon ("longsword"), nor a weapon category (e.g. piercing), nor the 2H vs. dual vs. sword-and-board dimension.

The basis for subclasses should be "concept", not tools. If that makes sense. One litmus test, although an unreliable one, is whether the basis for subclasses has infinite design space. (Not that it's necessary easy to keep coming up with new subclasses, or that you would want to. This is just an abstract design philosophy.)

Obviously they didn't originally take this approach with the Wizard class. By basing it on school, they immediately ran out of schools. But at least there were a bunch of schools, all more or less equally thematic.

So, anyway, if there were a psionic class, I'd hope there would be a much more interesting plan for subclasses than sub-disciplines. Maybe that would cause me to be more supportive of such a class.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I personally don't like "metabolic" psionics. (With an emphasis on "personally don't like." Just expressing my aesthetic preferences here. Let me know if I need to repeat those caveats a few more times.)

I realize there's some history behind "self-enhancement" psionics, but it feels too superhero-ish to me. Turning superior mental powers into superior physical powers is...cheesy. (Imagine the inverse, a Barbarian ability: "Your rage takes physical form, allowing you to cast fireball." Cheesy.)

The general categories of psionics that I think are cool are:

• Telepathy
  • Simple communication
  • Mind reading
  • Mental assault (psychic damage)
  • Mind control
• Telekinesis
  • Lifting & throwing
  • Bending/breaking
  • Controlling others' actions, without controlling their minds
  • Heat metal (and maybe other materials)
• Projection
  • Entering other's dreams
  • That thing that Eleven does

There may be other things. But here's the problem...

I don't think these sub-disciplines are the right dimension to base subclasses on. To me, these disciplines are comparable to fighting styles. 5e designers made a conscious decision to NOT base martial subclasses on the kind of weapon you use, neither a specific weapon ("longsword"), nor a weapon category (e.g. piercing), nor the 2H vs. dual vs. sword-and-board dimension.

The basis for subclasses should be "concept", not tools. If that makes sense. One litmus test, although an unreliable one, is whether the basis for subclasses has infinite design space. (Not that it's necessary easy to keep coming up with new subclasses, or that you would want to. This is just an abstract design philosophy.)

Obviously they didn't originally take this approach with the Wizard class. By basing it on school, they immediately ran out of schools. But at least there were a bunch of schools, all more or less equally thematic.

So, anyway, if there were a psionic class, I'd hope there would be a much more interesting plan for subclasses than sub-disciplines. Maybe that would cause me to be more supportive of such a class.

I'm not sure what could be used to distinguish subclasses of a dedicated psion class, if not the disciplines like telepathy or telekinesis.
Having it as a secondary decision point like weapon style or warlock pact makes sense if the psion is itself a subclass of another class like sorceror though.

The psion is already a specific "concept". How could you break that psion concept down into subclasses?

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'm not sure what could be used to distinguish subclasses of a dedicated psion class, if not the disciplines like telepathy or telekinesis.
Having it as a secondary decision point like weapon style or warlock pact makes sense if the psion is itself a subclass of another class like sorceror though.

The psion is already a specific "concept". How could you break that psion concept down into subclasses?

I'd start with imagining a story in which the psion plays a role, and then come up with a sub-class that describes that.

So there could be the "Doppelganger" psion, who tends to use his/her abilities to replace other people.

The "Advisor" or "Counselor" psion, who serves kings/queens, partly by monitoring others for threats. Or maybe "Envoy", who undertakes delicate and potentially dangerous diplomatic missions.

Then there's the "Outcast" psion, rejected by their culture for their strange powers.

I don't know, I'm just making these up as fast as I can. But this seems to me to be more similar to how other (non-Wizard) subclasses are conceived.

EDIT: There could even be a pet-subclass, who gets a psychic entity as their invisible, quasi-imaginary companion.

 

[Guest 6801328]

More thoughts...

First, upthread I included "Projection", with two examples, as sub-disciplines. I could actually see these being the basis for subclasses. Unlike telepathy and telekinetics.

Second, my position is that if one cannot think of a good number of concept-based subclasses, without having to resort to a focus on specific abilities, then the overall idea is unworthy of a separate class.

 

[Maxperson]

I personally don't like "metabolic" psionics. (With an emphasis on "personally don't like." Just expressing my aesthetic preferences here. Let me know if I need to repeat those caveats a few more times.)

I realize there's some history behind "self-enhancement" psionics, but it feels too superhero-ish to me. Turning superior mental powers into superior physical powers is...cheesy. (Imagine the inverse, a Barbarian ability: "Your rage takes physical form, allowing you to cast fireball." Cheesy.)

One "personally" is sufficient. I personally dislike the illusion school, except for invisibility and the conjuration school. We all have preferences.

The general categories of psionics that I think are cool are:

• Telepathy
  • Simple communication
  • Mind reading
  • Mental assault (psychic damage)
  • Mind control
• Telekinesis
  • Lifting & throwing
  • Bending/breaking
  • Controlling others' actions, without controlling their minds
  • Heat metal (and maybe other materials)
• Projection
  • Entering other's dreams
  • That thing that Eleven does

There may be other things. But here's the problem...

I don't care a lot for metabolic as a specialty myself. In 3e I took some of those abilities, but not as my primary focus. The metabolic changes have been a part of Psionics since 1e, though, and a lot of people do like those sorts of mental powers, so I think that they should be included.

I don't think these sub-disciplines are the right dimension to base subclasses on. To me, these disciplines are comparable to fighting styles. 5e designers made a conscious decision to NOT base martial subclasses on the kind of weapon you use, neither a specific weapon ("longsword"), nor a weapon category (e.g. piercing), nor the 2H vs. dual vs. sword-and-board dimension.

For martial, yes. However, the Wizard class established precedent for basing subclasses on specialties withing the class itself. There's no more or less reason to have an Enchanter or Evoker subclass than a Psychokinetic and Telepath subclass.

The basis for subclasses should be "concept", not tools. If that makes sense. One litmus test, although an unreliable one, is whether the basis for subclasses has infinite design space. (Not that it's necessary easy to keep coming up with new subclasses, or that you would want to. This is just an abstract design philosophy.)

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that the class should be able to come up with infinite subclasses based around the concept of specialties in order to warrant them being subclases?

Obviously they didn't originally take this approach with the Wizard class. By basing it on school, they immediately ran out of schools. But at least there were a bunch of schools, all more or less equally thematic.

I don't see a difference with the specialties of the Psion. I also don't think you really need more than a handful of subclasses around the basic premise of "schools" as a subclass. If you run out of schools at 8, and Psion subclasses at 6, that's sufficient for that concept. You can then make more wizard sublases, like say a Pyromancer or Psion subclasses like say a Metamind.

So, anyway, if there were a psionic class, I'd hope there would be a much more interesting plan for subclasses than sub-disciplines. Maybe that would cause me to be more supportive of such a class.

I wouldn't mind some sublasses outside of the base discipline oriented ones.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not sure what could be used to distinguish subclasses of a dedicated psion class, if not the disciplines like telepathy or telekinesis.

Look at the 3e Prestige classes for some ideas. They got pretty creative.