WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Higgs]

That is obviously not what he is saying or implying.

That's a relief! Can you explain to me how those two things are similar?

 

[DEFCON 1]

As is always the case, there will be extreme views on both sides of every moving issue. And it is only by seeing the extreme views does the culture find its equilibrium more towards the middle. So what will happen is the same thing that happens on every issue... the culture at large sees how things are travelling in the direction of "change" (with those with the most extreme "change" views out in front)... and somewhere down the line the people out front go over the tipping point and make most of the people behind them stop and say "Yeah, okay, that's a bit too far, even for us."

For all complaints about "slippery slopes"... they almost always end up being rather gentle slopes with a whole lot of bumps on the way. And society never goes careening forward like so many people in the far back want to believe it's going to. And then 20 years down the line we look back and think "This is really what got people so up in arms? Seriously?" And the supposedly "slippery slope" event looks positively quaint.

The "Satanic Panic" of the 80s? We now see it as rather silly and that "slippery slope" end up being practically flat. And did the removal of devils and demons from 2E end up actually affecting any of us in any meaningful way? Not even close. Yeah there was a lot of hue and cry about getting our assassins and devils taken out of our D&D... but after a few years the equilibrium was found and it became rather obvious that it hadn't been necessary. No book burning "slippery slope" ever occurred. And what about the harbingers of Satan in the late 80s... like the band 2 Live Crew and comedian Andrew Dice Clay? Two things that people out on the front of the extreme wave of censorship tried to get removed. How well did that work? Did that "slippery slope" end up removing all traces of sexually charged and casual misogyny in music and comedy heading into the 90s? Uh... nope. The worst we got is having "Parental Advisory - Explicit Lyrics" plastered on the front of all the CD cases. Ooh boy! What a hardship that was!

So what is going to happen in this case? Well, first of all... most of the people who are complaining about it will probably never even experience it because they either already own the OA book and weren't going to buy a copy of it off of DriveThru anyway... they will buy a copy of it NOW before anything happens just to "stick it" to whomever wants its removal... or the hue and cry will die down, the product may or may not get removed or have a disclaimer put on it, and then it won't be until 5 years from now someone will finally notice it happened and folks will go "Really? That happened? Oh, okay" and not give a rat's ass. Because why would we? It's a 30+ year old product for an edition that very few of us play, and which we never would even give a passing thought to until someone else brought it up.

 

[Sadras]

The slope must seem slippery when one chooses to be bedfellows with slime and muck.

That seems pretty inappropriate Aldarc.
Have you even bothered to watch the video of the two highly offended or are you just happy to pass judgment?

 

[Dausuul]

DON'T LIKE IT? DON'T BUY IT!

And if WotC doesn't like it, they don't have to sell it.

Contrary to the hyperbole from the folks in this thread, nobody is going Fahrenheit 451 or proposing to do so. At most, WotC might go back to "Oriental Adventures" being out of print and the only way to get a copy is to buy one secondhand. You know, exactly the way things were just a few years ago, before the DM's Guild existed. How quickly we forget.

If it turns out that OA has great enduring value, the price of a secondhand copy will skyrocket; in that case I would advocate the HBO solution (warning label and donate the proceeds). Otherwise... eh, just take it down and move on.

 

[Imaculata]

That's a relief! Can you explain to me how those two things are similar?

You are putting me in the position to explain his post? I don't think that is up to me to do.

However, I do get the impression that there are some overreactions going around. People seem almost zealous in trying to take down almost anything that has but a hint of perceived insensitivity. I think that is what he means, but a bit more nuanced in the wording.

 

[DEFCON 1]

While the same kind of disrespect is totally ok when directed at "white" cultures...

Well, as soon as the Black, Asian or Hispanic cultures of the world produce a product that stereotypes White cultures in a less-than-informed way... you will be more than free to complain about it.

 

[Imaculata]

Otherwise... eh, just take it down and move on.

And this is exactly the sort of attitude I oppose. Just let them take anything down as soon as someone is offended by it. I get that you are not attached to the value of these books, but what if other people are?

 

[Aldarc]

That seems pretty inappropriate Aldarc.
Have you even bothered to watch the video of the two highly offended or are you just happy to pass judgment?

Sadras, you may have forgotten, but I linked and discussed these OA review videos in another thread about OA.

 

[Dausuul]

And this is exactly the sort of attitude I oppose. Just let them take anything down as soon as someone is offended by it.

That is not my attitude.

I had a look at the article, read the criticisms, and find I agree with them. Assuming that Wizards also agrees with them, the question then is what to do about it. The HBO solution is a fair compromise when something has historic importance (e.g., "Gone with the Wind").

But otherwise, it's perfectly fine for WotC to quit selling it. My dismissiveness is for the idea that there is some great clash between Freedom of Speech and Sensitivity here. There isn't. If Wizards decides they don't want to be associated with the stuff in OA, they can just take it down, and anyone who wants a copy can go buy one on eBay--exactly the way it was before the DM's Guild existed.

 

[tommybahama]

ike @Reynard I'm disapointed with ENWorld of late. White fragility indeed. That's a relatively new term for me, but it fits perfectly. There's a lot of good folks who post here, but everytime we try to discuss making D&D more inclusive, the trolls and gatekeepers crawl out.

There is so much I find offensive in your post, but this "white fragility" takes the cake. Say that about any other group and you'd be moderated. And just because people disagree with your opinion about what is acceptable in our hobby doesn't make them trolls.