WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That ironic , you exactly do the same thing as the nazi did by censoring someone else opinion because you don't like it . You should ban yourself from this thread .

You're aware this is nonsense, and you're going to be banned, right?

Edit: It's not "censoring" if you get rid of offensive comments/commenters. If you don't want to get "censored", maybe try to not be as abrasive and obtuse as possible, or supporting those that are.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Prior books from nearly-nonplayed editions that contain offensive themes.

It is the same. You guys are saying "It's erasing history" the same way that pro-confederates are. You don't erase history by removing statues or taking down books. History is in museums and history books, in which D&D books will probably never be mentioned in.

Wow.

Thank you so much for telling me what is, and isn't, important. And that because you said D&D doesn't matter, anything I write about it, or even books as varied as Art & Arcana or Jon Peterson's excellent history, just shouldn't exist because it's not important to you.

I can't even.

Honest question to all of you complaining about this: Were you going to buy it? Do you even still play those editions? What's the big deal?

I've got a copy of it, but as I explained already, I would need another (LEGAL!) copy if something happened to it. And it's falling apart.
Yes, I still play 1e. Quite a few people do.

And it's a big deal because in addition to referring to it (for non-weapon proficiencies, spells, and damage types for certain weapons), I use it to research the history of the game. I enjoy that- see also the post I just did on Drow, or the prior one on Planes.

Whatever. Seriously, you just besmirched everyone who disagrees with you as Confederate sympathizers?

I am unclear on this; this is a thread where someone just said that I should PIRATE material. In other words, it's too offensive to have around, but no worries because I can steal it??????

 

[Todd Roybark]

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, not darkness and suppression.

Sadly this truism, is just not true...at least not in the realm of ideas.
The more an idea is repeated, the more it is believed and accepted.
Sadly, this seems to apply Even when falsehoods are stated in circumstances that should emphasize the ridiculousness of the position.

I have Jewish ancestry. Spain expelled the Jews in 1391. Many Marranos families, the Jews that practiced their faith in secret after expulsion became the official policy, eventually ‘forgot’ their Jewish ancestry.

To paraphrase an old Eddie Izard comedy sketch of “Cake or Death”....the Spanish policy of:
“Chorizo or Death” was very effective vis a vis removing Jewish identity.

Tolerated expressions of White Supremacy do not make persons safer.
The Sunlight of near constant media exposure, has not made racist utterances less prevalent.

I am no advocate of mass expulsions nor mass murder....however I do think making the social cost of expressing White Supremacist views, so high, that people keep those views secret, practice those views secretly, will lead just as it did with some Marranos families, to those views being lost.

Is this an ideal solution....of course not....but neither do we live in an ideal world.
Sorry “Sunlight is the best disinfectant”...while an admirable ideal....sometimes is just not sufficient, sometimes one needs bleach.

It pains me to have written this, but sadly I think it is the view most consistent with history.

On that note, I am taking a break...this post does not have a lot of direct D&D content, other than my trust that those of us that like to roll dice and imagine things, can always find common ground as people.

My apologies to the Moderation staff, if this crosses the No Politics position of the board.
I respect EnWorld’s position, and as mentioned, will be taking a break from this thread.
I earnestly feel, this was something I had to write. I understand, if the Moderators feel the need to take more formal actions.

 

[Lanefan]

Were you going to buy it? Do you even still play those editions? What's the big deal?

Yes I still play 1e (or close enough). And yes sooner or later I likely would buy the 1e version, were I ever to find it at a decent bargain.

Hard-copy version only, though.

That said, I don't care if WotC ever put it back in print or not; there's enough secondhand copies booting around out there to give me a good chance of finding one cheap sometime.

 

[Reynard]

I do not want other people to be the arbiters of what is or isn't "good or influential or culturally important" and limiting availability of past material based on those determinations, or (even worse) trying to make up some sort of calculation based on "offense v. importance."

Even the owners of that thing? Who are you to say what they can do with their own IP?

Imagine for a moment Lovecraft had lived for many more years and one day decided that the disgusting racism displayed in "Herbert West - Reanimator" was no longer palatable and did not believe it represented his current views. Would he not have the right to decide to cease publication of it and no longer allow it in anthologies of his work?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Thank you so much for telling me what is, and isn't, important. And that because you said D&D doesn't matter, anything I write about it, or even books as varied as Art & Arcana or Jon Peterson's excellent history, just shouldn't exist because it's not important to you.

When did I ever say it isn't important that this is happening? Of course it's important, it's showing that WotC are aware of offensive portrayals in past content, and are working on it.
Additionally, I didn't say D&D doesn't matter. Obviously D&D does matter, but in future history books, when they talk about the absolute disaster of a year that is 2020, do you really think they're going to mention that one time WotC removed an Oriental Adventures book?

Whatever. Seriously, you just besmirched everyone who disagrees with you as Confederate sympathizers?

No. I told one person that they're using the same arguments Confederate sympathizers are. I'm not calling you racist by telling you that your arguments are eerily similar to those that are.
I don't like the "erasing history" or "slippery slope" arguments that have been used multiple times by both Confederate sympathizers and this community. They're both fallacies, and easily refuted.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'm 10 pages into comments, but please listen to the podcast with Mr. Kwan that points out the stereotypes first before you get upset about why they feel the book needs to go. It's 2 hours long and they don't get far in those 2 hours, so if you don't have the time, here's a summary of some points:

2 hours... no that's part one there are 13 parts each nearly 2 hours long. (Although I'm taking the time to watch the first one at least)

1. Written by white guys from America who had good intentions (to spotlight asian culture) but through lack of understanding actually diminished a culture by turning it into an absurd stereotype.

Really how many Asian people were in the RPG industry back in 1985? Check the bibliography in the back and you will find plenty of Asian names they used for their research. The idea that authors can only write about their personal lived experience is one of the most stupid and annoying concepts to come about recently.

2. They explain why the term "oriental" is an outdated offensive term. It was once (perhaps still?) used by white people, in media and literature, to portray anyone from the "east" as one and the same and the "east" as a place of "violence, fanaticism, and needing to be saved."

And yet other Asians have no problem with the term Oriental, it describes an region of the globe, so what if it combines a load of different cultures, so does European, and African, but they aren't seen as offensive.

3 . Asians are all about honor and mysticism and martial arts.

And Europe is about Chivalry, Wizards and Knights with maybe the odd Viking?

The is a bit in the first episode (about 24:10) where they criticise this statement in Gygax's introduction.

Oriental Adventures covers the classes of adventurers, weapons, armor, spells, magic, and even the special monsters that make the legend and myth of the Far East so rich and varied.

Saying weapons, armour and magic are all about violence so a stereotype of the Orient, "Gary is saying we took all the cool stuff of East Asian and put it into one" and later "that the myths and legends are only interesting to them, not the lived reality of East Asia". Seriously consider the PHB what aspects of European culture does it cover? Oh right the Weapons, Armour and Magic, because that's what D&D is about. Do we look into the lived reality of European peasants in the PHB and D&D in general or do we look at the myths and legends of European history, like knights, dragons, magical swords and naughty word. Why would a book on "Oriental Adventures" not be about the same aspects of the Far East like traditional D&D is about the myths and legends of Europe.

4. Asians are about Dexterity, not Strength. The original book had Intelligence limits on certain types of asian characters.

If Asians are about Dexterity not Strength, why are they ignoring the minimum Strength scores needed to be a Monk, Samurai, Kensai & Sohei, all of which are above the Strength needed to play a Fighter?

Yes it had limits on Intelligence but only on one non-human race and it was 15 well above average, just like PHB, Dragonlance Adventures and most other sourcebooks that included races. Heck Gully Dwarves in Dragonlance have a racial max intelligence of 9, below human average!

I don't think that complaint can be taken seriously when you look at the actual source material.

I don't agree with completely erasing the book from history, but I do agree that HBO, Disney, and others are right to tag things as containing outdated and/or offensive cultural references. D&D can do the same.

There is likely some offensive content in there, but complaining about it focusing on the cool myths and legends of Asian and combining them into one setting, when D&D had previously been about taking the cool myths and legends of Europe and combining it into one setting, seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[Cadence]

For years I have wanted to see more monsters from cultures other than Europe and Greek mythology.

I finally got my copy of PF Bestiary 5, and I really need to find a page that matches all the monsters in the bestiaries with their real world inspiration - they come from all over! (My favorite so far is the Hodag in volume 3, recent and not mythological, but we vacation just north of there every summer).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When did I ever say it isn't important that this is happening?

History is in museums and history books, in which D&D books will probably never be mentioned in.

There. Are. Entire. Books. Written. About. The. History. Of. D&D.

Your inability to understand different perspectives does not mean you are correct, and your use of charged and inflammatory analogies to tar people as racists is offensive.

There is a valid debate to be had about proper corrective actions to take; I will always side on the maximalist side of promotion of ideas and access to material, even while agreeing that it is offensive. I will not have this debate with someone who immediately invokes that analogy.

 

[R_J_K75]

That said, I don't care if WotC ever put it back in print or not; there's enough secondhand copies booting around out there to give me a good chance of finding one cheap sometime.

If I had to guess the price of hard copies out there are going up in price by the second.