WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Alzrius]

BTW. There is a character in Ranma that fights with chopsticks IIRC.

I believe you mean Kirin, the antagonist from the first movie.

 

[Danzauker]

If you had to pick one of those two words then generalization would be the one, but even then it's not particularly apt. Classes are a set of rules and guidelines to produce an avatar for a TTRPG. A class could work off of a stereo type, and is in some ways working off of a generalization about a certain sort of fictional person in a fictional setting, but not quite. In a game with only a single class, that might be more accurate, but what we have in most TTRPGs is a whole set of classes that when taken together serve to deliminate the boundaries of a subset of the rules for player avatars. If you want to talk about stereotypes, you'd either be talking about the material a class is based on, and/or the expected output in terms of specific characters. Oriental Adventures falls down in both places.

From what I know, which is very little because it's not my field of study, stereotyping is not innately bad. Sure, it over simplifies, but for some is a necessary part how our learning process work. We need to simplify, generalize and categorize to make use of information. A dog bite me => Dogs bite so be careful.

With time people make better stereotypes, and we create more narrow stereotypes. They are fixed, true, because they are figment that we created. but can be ditched anytime and replaced with others. a stereotypemught be true for the majority of a group. Assuming it's valid for everyone is of course a mistake. Stereotypes can be useful and positive. If i see a frail old lady getting on a bus I presume that she needs help. Most of the times I get a thank you. I once left my seat to an old lady and she told me curses and to mind my own business because she was not old. Happens.

The point where it usually get bad is when stereotype lead to prejudice, which is indeed the fact that you are not consciously willing to adapt your stereotypes to evidence. You then give a moral assumption (a judgment) to a person/situation associated to a stereotype before evidence (pre).

Being stereotype usually associated with a negative nuance i understand the point of view of both of us. If you prefer we can use the term archetype. But once you remove the negative nuanche they are pretty much the same thing. the fact that "stereotype" denotes a negative slur it's, if you will, a prejudice in itself

Look at the barbarian. It's clearly based on the stereotype, or archetipe as you wish, of a fierce, physically strong and muscular warrior that is easy to anger, less skilled with weapon than a (civilized) fighter and makes up with rage to his lack of finesse. if in our world we had a Cimmeria I'm sure we'd get someone complaining about the racist barbarian D&D stereotype. since we haven't one, we are prone to consider it an harmful archetype.

 

[Danzauker]

I believe you mean Kirin, the antagonist from the first movie.

Could be, don't remember the name.

EDIT: I admit that this is a comical anime, so much is permitted. still it's typical of many manga/comic/RPG to have characters that can use absolutely harmless objects much more effectively that ordinary weapon jst so.

I can name Bullseye and anything from paperclip to cutlery and the girl from Dragonlance that used a frying pan much before Rapunzel.

 

[Fenris-77]

@Danzauker - you're talking about generalizations, not stereotypes. Generalizations are indeed useful, and essential to human thought. Stereotypes are neither of those things. A stereotype about biting dogs would be the belief that all dogs bite even having been presented the evidence that all dogs do not actually bite. A generalization is a broad inference based on available evidence, while a stereo type is a broad generalization that runs counter to available evidence, or does not change in the face of new available evidence.

For example, someone might legitimately infer from a very small sample size that all Asians do indeed know martial arts. That, for them, would be a generalization. However, pretty much any exposure to first, more than a handful of actual Asian people, or second, the internet, should put the lie to that initial generalization. A stereotype is the continued belief that all Asians know martial arts in the face of that new evidence. Mostly stereotyping is lazy thinking, and is also often tied to the need to pigeonhole and demean others in order to secure an inflated sense of self worth or value. So, to continue with the example of martial arts, the stereotype about Asians knowing martial arts allows a bully to inflate his sense of self worth when he can intimidate or physically assault that Asian. Essentially, he's bigger and badder because he faced down the ninja and prevailed.

I can't imagine there are too many people who are in a legitimate position to claim the generalization above, rather than the stereotype.

 

[Danzauker]

@Danzauker - you're talking about generalizations, not stereotypes. Generalizations are indeed useful, and essential to human thought. Stereotypes are neither of those things. A stereotype about biting dogs would be the belief that all dogs bite even having been presented the evidence that all dogs do not actually bite. A generalization is a broad inference based on available evidence, while a stereo type is a broad generalization that runs counter to available evidence, or does not change in the face of new available evidence.

For example, someone might legitimately infer from a very small sample size that all Asians do indeed know martial arts. That, for them, would be a generalization. However, pretty much any exposure to first, more than a handful of actual Asian people, or second, the internet, should put the lie to that initial generalization. A stereotype is the continued belief that all Asians know martial arts in the face of that new evidence. Mostly stereotyping is lazy thinking, and is also often tied to the need to pigeonhole and demean others in order to secure an inflated sense of self worth or value. So, to continue with the example of martial arts, the stereotype about Asians knowing martial arts allows a bully to inflate his sense of self worth when he can intimidate or physically assault that Asian. Essentially, he's bigger and badder because he faced down the ninja and prevailed.

I can't imagine there are too many people who are in a legitimate position to claim the generalization above, rather than the stereotype.

I repeat that's not my field so I take with great attention your explanation. I got mine from some sources but they are definitely not scientific so I don't take them for granted.

Let's agree that the main difference from a generalization and a stereotype is that the second is fixed.

Well, in the real world of course the first is bad. No generalization is immutable and 100% precise, we agree with that.

But if we are talking about a book? a RPG setting? when i write that book, whatever generalization from real world I used as a model at the time to shape my countries, my cultures, will be fixed on paper. So the distinction between the two becomes moot.

i'm buite ready to believe that any D&D sourcebook we could make based on Asian culture right now, for all the consultants we recruit, will get as anachronistic and maybe even offensive in 50 years as the first Iron Man comic books are if read now.

 

[Bohandas]

Well, it's kind of both. It's saying colonialism is bad, but that the only one who can stop colonialism is the white protagonist helping to stop his own team; the natives would lose without his help.

By the time he defeats the villain he is literally no longer white.

A lot like the Disney Pocahontas film, although at least Pocahontas is the protagonist in that film, though she needs John Smith to suceed.

Ok, I get what you're saying there

as an aside, since we're talking about similarities between those two movies, I find it striking that they also both have a wise tree creature that advises the native girl. That's an add thing to have.

EDIT:
As a counterpoint, I'd like to point out that even though these examples are white, whiteness is not an essential part of this trope. IIRC the backstory from Steven Universe is basically this same premise of an invaders going native and siding with the place they were sent to invade.

 

[TheSword]

Let’s be honest, in light of the current wide range of products, 1st Edition Oriental Adventures is a pretty naff book. At the time of publication it was pretty groundbreaking. Now with so many alternatives I can’t image why anyone would refer to it, unless they’re playing 1st ed for some reason.

That said I’m not a fan of pretending history didnt happen. In the field of history non-fiction the opinions change. People acknowledge this but we don’t destroy the old books.

 

[ART!]

@Danzauker - you're talking about generalizations, not stereotypes. Generalizations are indeed useful, and essential to human thought. Stereotypes are neither of those things. A stereotype about biting dogs would be the belief that all dogs bite even having been presented the evidence that all dogs do not actually bite. A generalization is a broad inference based on available evidence, while a stereo type is a broad generalization that runs counter to available evidence, or does not change in the face of new available evidence.

For example, someone might legitimately infer from a very small sample size that all Asians do indeed know martial arts. That, for them, would be a generalization. However, pretty much any exposure to first, more than a handful of actual Asian people, or second, the internet, should put the lie to that initial generalization. A stereotype is the continued belief that all Asians know martial arts in the face of that new evidence. Mostly stereotyping is lazy thinking, and is also often tied to the need to pigeonhole and demean others in order to secure an inflated sense of self worth or value. So, to continue with the example of martial arts, the stereotype about Asians knowing martial arts allows a bully to inflate his sense of self worth when he can intimidate or physically assault that Asian. Essentially, he's bigger and badder because he faced down the ninja and prevailed.

I can't imagine there are too many people who are in a legitimate position to claim the generalization above, rather than the stereotype.

THIS.

By definition, generalizations are convenient, mutable, and generally harmless, whereas stereotypes are lazy, stubborn, and harmful.

 

[Imaculata]

A lot like the Disney Pocahontas film, although at least Pocahontas is the protagonist in that film, though she needs John Smith to suceed. Also just learned John Smith is voiced by Mel Gibson, and whough that is ironic.

I'm still crossing my fingers, hoping Disney makes a live action Pocahontas. Complete with Mel Gibson and talking tree. Don't let me down Disney!

 

[Bohandas]

The tweets don't seem to tell much. i see there's no list of the offensive points or anything like that, unless my work server is crippling my navigation.

EDIT: I found this for example.

"If you disagree, you have clearly never had a piece of pop culture harm you. Books like this take my culture, oversimplify the nuances that make it beautiful, mash it together with other cultural reductions, and present it as THE WAY others should view our stories."

First is condescending. He forces his opinion on me. He states that I never found something that offended my culture. He does not know me. Even though I'm rarely offended and pretty easygoing, I have gotten into cultural offensive material. And I reacted. And guess what? I reacted wether the fact offended my culture or ANOTHER culture. So, no, you do not speak for everybody.

Second, the second period, I found that absolutely absurd. It's not THE WAY, it's ONE WAY to tell a story. I keep supporting the fact that mashing cultures together in a fictional literary work is perfectly normal. Sorry if someone disagrees with me. It's my opinion and I defend it.

Plus, he acts as if this sort of thing is only done with asian cultures.

For instance. I'm Italian American, do you know how many games have badguys that are based on either the mafia or ancient Rome. There's a ton of them. But I don't care.mI don't care. Fallout New Vegas somehow has both and it's one of my favorite games ever