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D&D 5E Monks Suck

I think if fighter's had a way to do this only a couple times per long rest, it would be ok. Sure, a wizard can blow up a division via meteor swarm, etc. but their resources are limited-- fighter's not nearly as much.

Sure, I'm not really thinking of a specific ability in 5E, but more the profound and slightly bizarre design discontinuity that underlies D&D (outside of 4E), especially as compared to fantasy fiction (including the stuff D&D is based on). It's a discontinuity which was a lot smaller in ancient D&D, because HP were so random and often very low, and only gradually got larger in 1E and 2E, and still a Fighter with multiple attacks could hope to one-round a lot of humanoid enemies (especially with a crit or two). It's only with the decision to inflate HP for pretty much everyone massively in 3E that it really sprinted out of each - and simultaneously the iterative attacks made Fighters way less capable at melee. 4E took a different route entirely, which obviated the issue, then with 5E it's back, because everything has a ton of HP. Casters have a lot fewer spell slots at least, so LFQW is less of think, but there's still a weird "Oh no, a Fighter couldn't just up and kill a guy!" thing going on.

Or the class called ''paladins'' in Pillars of Eternity 1.

???

Paladins in Pillars of Eternity are basically identical to 5E D&D Paladins (just different oaths to 5E), or arguably, similar to Champions from Arcana Unearthed (the Monte Cook 3E setting).

Are you thinking maybe specifically of the subclass Goldpact Knights? They match what you're describing, in that they're emotionless mercenaries who regard contracts as absolutely sacred and unbreakable. Other Paladins in Pillars have totally different (and more "normal") themes/ideas of course.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
More seriously...
  • You're not. That band of mystical do-gooders hiding in their so-called "school" is nothing but trouble.
  • You've banned all weapons from your palace (for "reasons") and they are your guard.
  • They are your warrior-diplomat-envoys.
  • Because the last time you relied only on warriors, your enemies took them all out with poison gas and nearly got you, too. So now you always keep two high-level monks lurking in the shadows.

It's a funny thing about fantasy games. If you want to like something, you can find reasons to like it. If you don't like something, you can find reasons for that, too.

See you're taking lore not class features except for the last one.

Monks are the class that rely on themselves. Any monk is a better assassin than the assassin rogue as they just need to isolate their target or even not - although assassins (who win initiative) get their one-hit-kill - but it's all or nothing; a monk beatdown might be a round slower, but has stunning fists to keep the target quiet. A weapons check won't stop them and nor will being observed and seen as suspicious. Monks, even more easily than rogues, can blend in to the population.

And yes they are assassins and yes they are skirmishers, and yes they are warriors although not full tanks. They are adaptable but in terms of combat role overlap a lot with the rogue. Why is this hard?

Because people in the community constantly state conflicting things.

I am fine with monks being skrimishing assassins. But then they aren't frontline warriors or battlefield controllers as they lack the class features for those.
 


Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Are the “conflicting things” being said by different people? Is it surprising that different people might have different perspectives?

Yes to the first.
No to the second.

My point is the other classes don't have nearly as much deviation of thought. Because unlike the monk, most classes have a clear direction of what roles or purposes the class features are aiming to coalesce around.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Why am I paying the monk instead of hiring another fighter, rogue, or ranger?
Plenty of classes overlap on roles. Why did you hire the fighter instead of a barbarian? Why did you hire the rogue instead of a bard? Why did you hire the ranger instead of... anybody?

The monk fills the same basic role as a rogue. Monks are better at some things (speed, dealing with enemy casters, disabling a big foe) and worse at others (skills, raw DPR), but the two classes occupy similar niches.
 

Why did you hire the rogue instead of a bard?

Because they're totally different classes with totally different functionalities and nearly no overlap? That is just a godawful example of "overlap" in 5E? Maybe in 3E that was a question. Bards have breadth of skills and are massively powerful casters in 5E. Rogues have more powerful, reliable skills in specific areas, and are high-single-target DPS, not powerful casters.

Bard and Sorcerer or something is a better overlap.

The monk fills the same basic role as a rogue. Monks are better at some things (speed, dealing with enemy casters, disabling a big foe) and worse at others (skills, raw DPR), but the two classes occupy similar niches.

They absolutely don't. Outside of combat, Monks are pretty close to objectively worse than Rogues. I mean I'd say they are objectively worse. The number of places a Rogue can be useful, and significantly useful, out of combat, is going to vastly exceed that of a Monk, with stuff like Reliable Talent (which is amazing) alone.

Inside combat, they're closer, but Monks aren't generally as good or versatile as Rogues. Most combat don't involve casters who need "taking out", and yet who a Monk can safely solo. This is big lie of "Monks are for killing casters". Monks don't have enough burst or survivability to actually reliably pull this off unless the enemy basically doesn't respond, and can't hit and fade like Rogues can (nor shoot from the shadows). A Monk has to run up to his target, and then spend multiple rounds taking it down whilst somehow not getting beaten to death. Doing this even once in a combat blows pretty much all their per-short-rest Ki at lower levels, and they can maybe do it twice per short rest at mid levels.

But even that is still not addressing the lie - which is that killing enemy casters by penetrating their lines with a specialist class is routine requirement in 5E. It isn't. Loads of situations obviate it:

1) Your side has good ranged attacks.

If so, chances are, you can just gun down the caster.

2) Caster isn't actually a significant threat.

This is very often the case in 5E. PCs are very often spread out, and enemy casters often don't have that great of a spell set, and often are lower-level than than the PCs.

3) Caster has too many HP (or other defences) for this to work.

This is often the case in 5E, due to HP inflation. A lot of NPC casters are basically as tough as the front line. A solo Monk is unlikely to be able to take them down, and thanks to 5E's OA rules, can't even stop them casting freely (I guess he makes ranged attack roll spells have disadvantage? like a familiar would?)

In fact, in my experience, the percentage of casters who are both easy enough to kill to make this a valid strategy, and dangerous enough for it to be worth it is pretty tiny.

4) Enemy line is not coherent enough to require specialist penetrator.

I.e. the Barbarian or whoever can just mosey on through the wide gaps between enemies (esp. after dropping an enemy) and kill the caster.

5) Caster doesn't immediately get CC'd.

Again, this happens a lot in 5E. A couple of failed saves from the caster are often enough.

6) Combat lasts long enough that the caster doesn't essentially die at the same point anyway.

The average length of combat in 5E, by design, is 3 rounds. My experience is reality tends to go 4, but YMMV. Often a Monk takes 3 rounds to even kill one caster (I mean, maybe the Monks I've seen are just bads but I doubt it). As casters can basically free-cast with the Monk there, it doesn't matter much if one Monk spends three rounds grinding him down, or multiple people attack and kill him on round 3/4. Stunning Strike is the answer to stopping casting, but that's more Ki to blow, and doesn't always work, and is basically the only thing Monks really have going for them.

It's a false role.
 

As someone playing a monk of the four elements from 5th to (currently 15th) level, I have to say that when people start breaking out the numbers as a justification on whether a class is good or not seem to forget this is a game, and the only measure is FUN.

I am having a ton of fun with this monk! He is a styled Whirling Dervish with absorb elements and produce flame (magic initiate) and he has more variability than any other martial I have played now he's at high levels.

I can be a normal monk, moving and stunning. (this can be quite effective against multiple drow btw).
I can can in the middle of a group and use defensive stance to "tank"
I can keep my distance and strike with flaming tendrils without engaging in melee (very useful against trolls and creatures with certain melee reactive effects)
I can fly (utility possibilities endless) and with slow fall I never worry about falling damage
I can cast fireballs (doesn't matter that it's much later than wizards, it's still awesome fun and it's good to double up with the wizard)
I can trip from a distance (water whip)
I can thunderwave monsters off high cliffs
I have proficiency in all saves now, and can spend a ki point to reroll a failed save
I'm immune to poison
I have evasion so for many area effects I have a good chance at taking 0 damage. Even if I do, I can use my 1/day absorb elements to take a half of the half damage, and use it to add a d6 of extra damage on my next melee
I can speak and understand all languages

There are a ton more things I can do both in utility and in combat. And despite not having the highest HP, I am resistant/good at saving at a huge number of things, and often find myself barely damaged at a scrap next to the fighters, despite the lower AC.

It's true that it comes into it's own at higher levels, (a bit like a quadratic martial?).

It's a shame that people bemoan the class, because I find all the choices I have and things I can do make the monk an absolute blast to play.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Monk has to run up to his target, and then spend multiple rounds taking it down whilst somehow not getting beaten to death.
Wait what?

Bro, what?

So, even ignoring the Mobile feat, you’ve got at least 3 subclasses with direct “hit and fade” mechanics. Drunken Master Disengages every time it uses FoB. Shadow has bonus action teleport, albeit at level 6. Open Hand can deny a target their reaction any time you hit it.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Plenty of classes overlap on roles. Why did you hire the fighter instead of a barbarian? Why did you hire the rogue instead of a bard? Why did you hire the ranger instead of... anybody?

The monk fills the same basic role as a rogue. Monks are better at some things (speed, dealing with enemy casters, disabling a big foe) and worse at others (skills, raw DPR), but the two classes occupy similar niches.

The issue was some compare the monk to the fighter.
Other compare it to a rogue.
And other say something else.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
As someone playing a monk of the four elements from 5th to (currently 15th) level, I have to say that when people start breaking out the numbers as a justification on whether a class is good or not seem to forget this is a game, and the only measure is FUN.

I am having a ton of fun with this monk! He is a styled Whirling Dervish with absorb elements and produce flame (magic initiate) and he has more variability than any other martial I have played now he's at high levels.

I can be a normal monk, moving and stunning. (this can be quite effective against multiple drow btw).
I can can in the middle of a group and use defensive stance to "tank"
I can keep my distance and strike with flaming tendrils without engaging in melee (very useful against trolls and creatures with certain melee reactive effects)
I can fly (utility possibilities endless) and with slow fall I never worry about falling damage
I can cast fireballs (doesn't matter that it's much later than wizards, it's still awesome fun and it's good to double up with the wizard)
I can trip from a distance (water whip)
I can thunderwave monsters off high cliffs
I have proficiency in all saves now, and can spend a ki point to reroll a failed save
I'm immune to poison
I have evasion so for many area effects I have a good chance at taking 0 damage. Even if I do, I can use my 1/day absorb elements to take a half of the half damage, and use it to add a d6 of extra damage on my next melee
I can speak and understand all languages

There are a ton more things I can do both in utility and in combat. And despite not having the highest HP, I am resistant/good at saving at a huge number of things, and often find myself barely damaged at a scrap next to the fighters, despite the lower AC.

It's true that it comes into it's own at higher levels, (a bit like a quadratic martial?).

It's a shame that people bemoan the class, because I find all the choices I have and things I can do make the monk an absolute blast to play.

the final analysis is all that matter: is it fun or not? Too many have fun with monks for them to be dismissed.

I am biased due to flavor issues but in the end, that is just a taste thing.

I play against type and suboptimal for fun. I suppose monk players who have fun aren’t doing anything different in that respect.

I did get tempted to play a half orc strength orc once after one level of barbarian. Never did it but a wild hulk-like pc seemed like a fun diversion.
 

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