D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Esker]

So do you concede that its roughly 50/50 then?

Even against literally the strongest DPR class in the game at that level in a SS/ CE/ Archery BM Fighter (with Con 16, d10 HP and Con save proficiency) barring maybe a Raging GWM Frenzy Barbarian?

I'm not ready to concede that just yet. It might turn out that way, but what I said before that we should really do is roll it out a bunch of times (and not clog up this thread further with a fake play-by-post match). But you went ahead with it anyway.

There's about a 16% chance 4 or 5 of my attacks hit on my first turn, in which case you go down in one turn regardless of damage rolls and deflect missiles roll. There's also about a 30% chance 3 of 5 attacks hit, and when that happens there's about a 27% chance you go down anyway, due to the particular combination of damage rolls and deflect missiles roll. So that's another 8% chance overall that you go down on my first turn. Overall 24% chance you go down on my first turn, and that's if you win initiative and have a chance to use agile parry before I go.

So in order for you to get three turns before I've had two, you need to (a) go first (about a 75% chance), (b) survive my first turn (about a 76% chance), and (c) successfully stun me on your second turn (about a 57% chance). Individually, each of these is more likely than not, but combined it's only a 32% chance. That's the problem with assuming the most likely outcome --- do it often enough and you no longer have the most likely outcome.

Even if all your attacks hit and you roll max damage on all of them, you don't down me in one turn. There's a chance you might do it in two without me getting a turn if (a) you win initiative, (b) you manage to stun me in the first turn, and (c) get lucky on your to-hit and damage rolls. We could try to work that out analytically, but it's pretty messy, so I think it's probably better left to just running the experiment with dice.

 

[Mort]

They still have the same AC (which is decent), make three attacks per turn, and have high movement speed. This is actually the situation I think makes mobile a decent pick for monks, because they can still strike and fade with no ki, and their ki use was focused on patient defense and flurry, upping AC and Damage output.

The problem with taking mobile is you sacrifice AC and To hit (if you would have take DEX) or AC and a save boost to stunning strike (if you would have taken WIS) - that's a BIG trade off. Sure you can take mobile after maxing both - but that's way late in the game!

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Perfectly viable.

You can use Str to hit and damage, and your AC is looked after due to Toitle.

You could dump Dex to 8, Max str and wis and be perfectly fine.

Don't forget to sing the TMNT song at the start of each of your turns, and write into your back story how you were trained by a wererat in hybrid form in the sewers of a large city.

Do you actually need to max WIS?

 

[Mistwell]

Why not just not play monk if you don't think they're good?

I don't.

I'd like to though. So I'd like some things to make them more playable in my view.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Perfectly viable.

You can use Str to hit and damage, and your AC is looked after due to Toitle.

You could dump Dex to 8, Max str and wis and be perfectly fine.

Don't forget to sing the TMNT song at the start of each of your turns, and write into your back story how you were trained by a wererat in hybrid form in the sewers of a large city.

Huh. Yeah. The only real disadvantage I see is with Deflect Missiles. Acrobatics would suck, but you'd be compensated with Athletics.

I shall name him...Picasso.

Or maybe Larson.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Do you actually need to max WIS?

Saving throw DC.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

At my current level of 9, nothing coming down the pipe for additional Monk features really tickles me. Have been considering multi-classing at this point, but to what?! Unknown.

Ignoring the kensei-specific sharpen the blade (which is fine, I guess), and ASIs (because any classes get them), IMO you're about to get some great features!

Immunity to disease and poison- that's kind of cool, right? (10th level)
Speak and understand all languages- very campaign dependent, admittedly (13th)

But most importantly, proficiency in all saves and can reroll all saves (14th). That might the best high-level monk ability!

(in addition, at 10th your movement increases and at 11th level you damage die increases)

 

[Istbor]

Ignoring the kensei-specific sharpen the blade (which is fine, I guess), and ASIs (because any classes get them), IMO you're about to get some great features!

Immunity to disease and poison- that's kind of cool, right? (10th level)
Speak and understand all languages- very campaign dependent, admittedly (13th)

But most importantly, proficiency in all saves and can reroll all saves (14th). That might the best high-level monk ability!

(in addition, at 10th your movement increases and at 11th level you damage die increases)

Yeah. But it is all still pretty much 'meh'. The dmg die increase isn't as huge of a factor for a Kensei.

While speed is nice, I am already faster than any of the other party members. Languages won't play a large part in this campaign, and that is still 5 levels to get proficiency in all saves. That is probably the one that is the largest draw. However, is it worth it? I have no guarantee we will still be playing at 14th. And if we are, it may not be for very long. As well, the chances of running into poison or diseases are so dependent on the campaign and encounters. It is cool flavor, especially for a Lizardfolk with a penchant for eating everything. And it may be for that alone that I stick it out until 10.

 

[Istbor]

I MC/d my Kensai Monk to BM Fighter (3 levels) at 5th.

Disarming strike, Precise attack, Evasive Footwork, Riposte*

(took the UA F/S that grants an extra die and manoeuvre known)

More for flavor (swordmaster), but it gives so many more options.

Stunned creatures auto fail Str and Dex saves, meaning I can disarm them automatically when stunned just to really screw them over (and then use my free object interaction to kick the weapon away).

When I Nova from full, and action surge and flurry it's 6 attacks, I can Stun on 4 of those, and have 5 superiority dice to blow as well.

It's also nice to Dash (ki point) as a bonus action 100' away (Mobile) and then when you get there, Action surge + Stun+Sup dice the (normally a Caster) to death.

Instead of 8 Ki, I have 5 Ki, and 5 Sup dice (4 from BM and 1 from the F/S) and an Action surge up my sleeve.

This is similar to what I have been toying with. It also fits somewhat with my Character and why he is out adventuring.
(Long story short, the religious caste is meant to go out on great journeys taking in cultures, traditions, and tactics from the other nations and peoples. Then take this learned knowledge and bring it back to the homeland to help lead warriors of the faith more effectively.)

There is a lot to consider yet. The biggest one, is how long is the campaign lasting for?

 

[Chaosmancer]

The problem with taking mobile is you sacrifice AC and To hit (if you would have take DEX) or AC and a save boost to stunning strike (if you would have taken WIS) - that's a BIG trade off. Sure you can take mobile after maxing both - but that's way late in the game!

Sure, but it is mitigating the fact that you can make more attacks, and then use your superior mobility to get away from the attackers.

The best way to avoid getting hit by an axe is being 35 ft away from them when they would swing it. And a Monk Wood Elf with mobile at level 5 has 55 movement. That means if they started their turn within 20 ft of an enemy, they could got in, attack four times, and get out of reach. Which is not a bad combo in exchange for a little less AC and save.

And if you have no ki left? Then it is the exact same move except three attacks instead of four.