Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Asisreo]

I think the core issus is that the spellcaster's solution comes from his class features whereas the fighter's solution comes from his share of the gold or treasure.

Now if the fighter still advanced to a Fighter-Lord or a Christmas Tree Fighter, then gold and treasure would be class features respectively.

What's it matter where it comes from so long as they can do it?

This isn't a game where you can only do what's in your class features and nothing else. Staring at your features for too long will have you forget to just play the game. You play your character, your character doesn't play you. Even if you don't have a feature that allows you to automatically charm someone, you can still be charming.

 

[TwoSix]

What's it matter where it comes from so long as they can do it?

This isn't a game where you can only do what's in your class features and nothing else. Staring at your features for too long will have you forget to just play the game. You play your character, your character doesn't play you. Even if you don't have a feature that allows you to automatically charm someone, you can still be charming.

Sure, but you have to remember there are two large camps of D&D players. One camp is happy to leave adjudication of features up to the DM, and the other who prefers to have an explicit declaration of player permission to make a change to the story. (The former is the skill system, the latter is how spells work, BTW.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

What's it matter where it comes from so long as they can do it?

This isn't a game where you can only do what's in your class features and nothing else. Staring at your features for too long will have you forget to just play the game. You play your character, your character doesn't play you. Even if you don't have a feature that allows you to automatically charm someone, you can still be charming.

On the other hand if you do have a feature that allows you to automatically charm someone you can still be charming and you can also use your feature that lets you automatically charm someone. You are strictly better than the person without the ability because you can do everything they can do and more. And then you can e.g. also lever your other abilities, like for example Unseen Servant, to provide assistance to your charm with some practical support in making sure you have what you need to hand and pay attention to the person you are charming.

If you have more options on the character sheet you actually have more options to go beyond your character sheet. You can not only do 100% of what someone who has little on their character sheet can do, you have the extra options on your character sheet and you can leverage your abilities rather than having to start with a blank sheet.

 

[Minigiant]

What's it matter where it comes from so long as they can do it?

This isn't a game where you can only do what's in your class features and nothing else. Staring at your features for too long will have you forget to just play the game. You play your character, your character doesn't play you. Even if you don't have a feature that allows you to automatically charm someone, you can still be charming.

Because you are only guaranteed the resources that come from your race, class, and starting equipment.

If a fighter was guaranteed a flying mount, a sack of magic items, a squad of loyal followers, and a castle, half of this thread wouldn't be needed.

Saying the fighter can spend 1/2 his treasure to replicate what the wizard can do daily as a solution is not going to satisfy the desires of many. So if a particular DM does not adjudicate your wishes in the way you want or doesn't provide the infrastructure needed, you can't do it.

 

[Stalker0]

He jumps, and floats like Trinity. Why not?

I have no issue with that, I was responding to the argument that “anything magical can be done mundanely with creativity”

your answer is still magical, as mine would be. The simple truth is, right now you need magic to beat magic at high levels. The argument that “mundane could do it just takes longer”, well that’s like saying “well this factory could build your product in a day, but by hand it will take a month”. If I need a product in a week...by hand just isn’t going to cut it.

If the dark wizard is going to take over the world in a week, sorry having to wait for the fighter to find a mundane means to fly to his base whereas the wizard can just pop in there, it’s not going to work

 

[Stalker0]

I do really like the idea of archetypes (ie paragon paths) that give fighters the “magical” hootspha they need, but provides the necessary flavor requirements to let players swallow it for the fighter. Here’s a few examples of ways to give fighters flexible high level magic (in flavor).

So here are some examples you could choose from at 10th level.

Chosen by War: Your exploits in battle are so great that they have gotten the attention of a god of war, who grants you the power of his favor.

—War Gods Favor: once per day, you can cast any 5th level or lower cleric spell, including spells on the war domain list.

Company Master: You have founded or taken over a military company, with all the mundane and magical resources at their disposal.

— Armaments: once per day you can take supplies from your company’s reserve for your own use. Gain any consumable item that is Rare or lower. The item is returned after a long rest if it’s not used.


So in the first example, the fighter is a little more directly magical. In the second, more mundane. But both still have access to high level and flexible (which is very important) magics

 

[Asisreo]

On the other hand if you do have a feature that allows you to automatically charm someone you can still be charming and you can also use your feature that lets you automatically charm someone. You are strictly better than the person without the ability because you can do everything they can do and more. And then you can e.g. also lever your other abilities, like for example Unseen Servant, to provide assistance to your charm with some practical support in making sure you have what you need to hand and pay attention to the person you are charming.

If you have more options on the character sheet you actually have more options to go beyond your character sheet. You can not only do 100% of what someone who has little on their character sheet can do, you have the extra options on your character sheet and you can leverage your abilities rather than having to start with a blank sheet.

I've never said you wouldn't have the ability to do something better. It's always somehow about compare and contrast when what matters is what you have on-hand.

What you're talking about applies to spellcasters as well, you know? A cleric doesn't get to teleport. A warlock is strictly better than the cleric when it comes to out-of-combat movement, does that mean a cleric needs fixing. Not to mention, in the moment a caster may not even have the spell in their spells known.

Everyone has something they're better at than others in the game as a class. The wizard is the best utility class, the bard is the best support class, the fighter is the best fighting class. They can live without needing any of the others, but they work together to accomplish their goals in the most efficient manner. All classes needn't be homogeneous to have impact on all parts of the game.

And it isn't a contest for who can do how many tricks. Having charm person does not automatically make you better than someone that doesn't have it when socializing is involved. They first need to fail the save and then you only get advantage on charisma checks. That's at the cost of a magic missile or shield. A little less dramatic at higher levels, but the creatures you need to charm at these levels are rarely humanoid or have high wisdom modifiers. You'd have to start spending even larger spell slots, meaning you start sacrificing the power of higher level spells useful for combat.

And you can't act like spells doesn't have negative effects to them both with and without DM fiat. Charm spells in particular can cause enemies to realize they've been enchanted by you and some can even go hostile from this attempt.

 

[Quartz]

The easiest ways to display these different styles is via subclasses or prestige classes and epic destinies.

Could not much be done by granting higher power Battlemaster manoeuvres? Specify a Proficiency Bonus requirement of +4 or higher.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Allow me to explain:

From a minutia perspective, yes, the fighter cannot fly unassisted by magic or DM fiat. However, we are not playing a game of isolated challenges without any context.

I gave an answer as ridiculous as the challenge: to simply float in mid-air. The only reason you've come up with this challenge is to say that a caster can fly. But a fighter can do anything the caster can do while they're flying through mundane means. Like you said, it could be for scouting, intimidation, or having to grab something from above. But a fighter can scout, intimidate, or grab something without having to cast a fly spell.

Magic is not meant to be this catch-all get-out-of-jail-free card. There are flaws to magic use.

Magic's primary use outside of combat is not to solve impossible problems, it's to solve problems quicker and more efficiently than through mundane means. At the expense of combat ability.

Flying is an advantage in scouting except you can be easily seen. It also means anything that hits you threatens your concentration and you could start plummeting to your 20d6 fall or waste another spell gently floating down just to be constantly being attacked anyways. You can't fly and be invisible without an external item or spellcaster, so if you're flying, you're going to be noticed.

Again, magic is useful. But whatever you're trying to accomplish with it can be done through mundane means.

Except, spellcasters are also typically better in combat too.

I mean, sure, the Fighter can kill ten goblins with his sword, if he is 20th level and burns a chunk of his resources, he might even possibly be able to do it in 2 rounds.


Fireball does it in a single action, and by 20th level isn't even breaking a sweat for the Wizard.

Not to say there are not flaws to magic use, mostly because of concentration, but a wizard can solve combat problems a fighter simply cannot, like denying actions to the enemy, or protecting a crowd of civilians, or preventing a crowd of enemies from escaping. Along with being nearly as deadly if not deadlier, and solving out of combat problems too.

Again, these are all context-less challenges. Why do I even need to get to the BBEG? What's the purpose.

I can escape a wall of force through mundane means, it's called waiting.

Magical problems exist but there's always a mundane solution in actual games.

The problem is not to get into the BBEG's castle, it's to kill the BBEG. Rather than going into his home turf, you could convince him to come down and fight you.

Would that work? Who knows. There isn't any real adventuring context. We're just plopped in a empty void scenario like a bad tutorial level and expected to solve the problem using only one obvious method.

"Waiting" isn't a solution. It is losing.

Sure, they can't keep up the wall of force forever, but they know that to, so they are only trying to delay you until they can accomplish a goal. And your solution is to be delayed, because you have nothing that can do anything else.

And gave up toughness, strength/speed, essentially mundane combat. People act like combat doesn’t make a difference isn’t a massive part of the game. You may think your handful of high level spells are worth that... I would say it’s a tough call.

Incidentally D&d was always intended as a cooperative team game not a competition.

The 20th level fighter (champion) is effectively regenerating, attacking 4 times faster than a normal person when they aren’t trying, 8 times faster when they are; dealing a critical hit, approx twice every three rounds, fighting with any weapon, they’re also slamming their shield in front of enemy attacks to protect their friends, or tripping people with a glaive and stopping them in their tracks.

When the wizard turns into a dragon, the fighter hits it and it turns back into a wizard. The fighter feels fresh as a daisy and the wizard has lost their most powerful spell.

Regenerating to half health, as a note.

And, an adult red dragon with warcaster literally can't fail a concentration check of less than 15, which means 30 damage in a single strike. With advantage and a +13, I'd give that wizard decent odds of needing to take over 44 points of damage in a single blow to lose concentration.

Meaning the fighter needs to just get through all 260 hp of the dragon, who is first of all going to open with a Breath weapon for around 63 damage, then rip and tear for 58 per turn... and when he turns back into a wizard, he just casts another spell like power word stun, or disintegrate or any number of nasty effects, with full health, because the fighter first fought a dragon.


And again, the idea that the wizard is losing out on combat, when they are actually more powerful in and out of combat, boggles me.

What's it matter where it comes from so long as they can do it?

Because casters get loot and treasure too.

If the fighter needs to get a carpet of flying to start flying (something the wizard could already do) and the wizard gets a staff of fire to give them even more combat spells, the fighter isn't catching up. They are falling behind.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I've never said you wouldn't have the ability to do something better. It's always somehow about compare and contrast when what matters is what you have on-hand.

What you're talking about applies to spellcasters as well, you know? A cleric doesn't get to teleport. A warlock is strictly better than the cleric when it comes to out-of-combat movement, does that mean a cleric needs fixing. Not to mention, in the moment a caster may not even have the spell in their spells known.

That is kinda the point. Clerics, Warlocks etc all get useful utility spells. At high level that is a lot of solutions to problems and chances to shine.
In terms of class capabilities, a wizard, cleric or warlock who is out of spells or has none applicable is down to just Ability checks with skill proficiencies.

Or, to put it bluntly: A caster in their worst-case situation is at the same level of capability and opportunity as a fighter in their best-case situation.

Everyone has something they're better at than others in the game as a class. The wizard is the best utility class, the bard is the best support class, the fighter is the best fighting class. They can live without needing any of the others, but they work together to accomplish their goals in the most efficient manner. All classes needn't be homogeneous to have impact on all parts of the game.

In combat (ie "fighting") almost all classes have fairly equivalent capabilities. If you're looking for a class with the worst potential opportunities to contribute in combat, its not going to be a high-level caster.

And it isn't a contest for who can do how many tricks. Having charm person does not automatically make you better than someone that doesn't have it when socializing is involved. They first need to fail the save and then you only get advantage on charisma checks. That's at the cost of a magic missile or shield. A little less dramatic at higher levels, but the creatures you need to charm at these levels are rarely humanoid or have high wisdom modifiers. You'd have to start spending even larger spell slots, meaning you start sacrificing the power of higher level spells useful for combat.

And you can't act like spells doesn't have negative effects to them both with and without DM fiat. Charm spells in particular can cause enemies to realize they've been enchanted by you and some can even go hostile from this attempt.

Having charm person does make you better than someone that doesn't have it when socializing is involved. It is an additional option that the other person does not have; even if you never have to use it, you had the option of using it.