Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[glass]

That’s a fairly insubstantiated claim about LFQW.

Insubstatial? It's cast iron. 4e had no LFQW, 5e has less than 3e but more than 4e. Ergo 5e increased LFQW, it did not reduce it. QED.

Removing the link between caster level and power from spell descriptions.

4e did this, not 5e.

Concentration

Only necesary because all all the caster supremacy that 5e added back in after 4e removed it.

... repeat those two answers for the other bullet points.

I am sorry if reality gets in the way of your efforts to pretend 4e did not exists. Actually, no I am not.

_
glass.

 

[FrogReaver]

Insubstatial? It's cast iron. 4e had no LFQW, 5e has less than 3e but more than 4e. Ergo 5e increased LFQW, it did not reduce it. QED.

4e did this, not 5e.
Only necesary because all all the caster supremacy that 5e added back in after 4e removed it.

... repeat those two answers for the other bullet points.

_
glass.

Is this “4e will rise again” day?

 

[TheSword]

Insubstatial? It's cast iron. 4e had no LFQW, 5e has less than 3e but more than 4e. Ergo 5e increased LFQW, it did not reduce it. QED.

4e did this, not 5e.
Only necesary because all all the caster supremacy that 5e added back in after 4e removed it.

... repeat those two answers for the other bullet points.

I am sorry if reality gets in the way of your efforts to pretend 4e did not exists. Actually, no I am not.

_
glass.

I don’t pretend it didn’t exist. A lot of the cool stuff in 5e was reached through experimentation during the 4e period.

However... 4e dealt with the LFQW problem by removing wizards as we know them. That wasn’t solving the problem, it was creating an alternate dimension where the problem didn’t exist.

5e is more like 3e and Pathfinder and a return to something more similar to those systems. [edited to remove 4e bashing!]

 

[glass]

Is this “4e will rise again” day?

Likening fans of a particular edition of an RPG to the Confederacy? Really? That is in incredibly poor taste.

_
glass.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

Folks,

Rehashing old conflicts over editions is a very good way to get yourself removed from discussions of a new game. 3e/4e/5e wars are not appropriate, so don't engage in them, please and thank you.

 

[CapnZapp]

PF2 has been out for a year. After 3e had been out for a year, people were still routinely saying Monks were overpowered. I am quite comtortable dismissing the balance opinions of any random person on the internet, especially whene they make comments like...

The only "LFQW" problem that 5e can conceivably have solved is "people like LFQW, so we need to add some back".

_
glass.

:-(

 

[CapnZapp]

That’s a fairly insubstantiated claim about LFQW.

• Removing the link between caster level and power from spell descriptions.
• Limiting high level spell slots to 1 per day.
• Concentration
• Restricting metamagic to sorcerer only in limited uses.
• Limits on summoned/risen creatures
• Revised spells like teleport
• Removal of permanency
• Legendary resistances

These things don’t address the LFQW problem?

Of course 5E addresses the LFQW problem.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Isnt that much of a stretch that after 9 (a little low, I prefer those feature at level 11+) in Barovia, the fighter, the leader of man, the expert of the battle field, can muster a militia in one of the village or found a knightly order in an abandoned fort in the mountain? And after 20 level of battlefield expertise, call himself regent of a small settlement by offering the inhabitant is full, 20th level fighter, protection? Now, how that will work out between him and Strahd after gaining such things is another history, but that's the goal of a feature: creating an interesting history.

And should those things be impossible in your game, maybe just have them be big features in terms of roleplay yet small features in mechanical terms, so that they can be easily handwaved should the DM wishes to. Like the features that makes you un-aging and sustain yourself with you own mind, or thief's cant and druidic signs.

By the way, the game already has Temple of the God as a spell where I can erect a full-on magic temple to my deity in the middle of Barovia, no matter what the DM says (unless he vetoes it, but that's another thing: the DM can veto anything. The book cannot hold rules to replace any options the DM might veto!).

I would note that there is a big difference between what you propose and the Temple of the Gods spell.

People.

Temple of the Gods doesn't summon a congregation from thin air, it just creates the building.

And, I just have a problem with earning NPCs as a class feature. It feels weird. We don't even use the retainers and such for nobility, because having three extra NPCs following the party into danger doesn't make sense. And the fighter suddenly gains the loyalty of 10 to 20 people we have never met and interacted with? And there is likely no conflict the fighter was in that the rest of the party wasn't, so they would have heard of the group, not the fighter as a lone wolf.

Which then makes this a group resource, not a class resource, or the other players might feel slighted because the fighter is suddenly so cool people will beg to follow him, but they've been doing the exact same things, and been just as important, but they don't have anyone clamoring to follow them.

I just don't see this as a solution to the problem.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would note that there is a big difference between what you propose and the Temple of the Gods spell.

People.

Temple of the Gods doesn't summon a congregation from thin air, it just creates the building.

And, I just have a problem with earning NPCs as a class feature. It feels weird. We don't even use the retainers and such for nobility, because having three extra NPCs following the party into danger doesn't make sense. And the fighter suddenly gains the loyalty of 10 to 20 people we have never met and interacted with? And there is likely no conflict the fighter was in that the rest of the party wasn't, so they would have heard of the group, not the fighter as a lone wolf.

Which then makes this a group resource, not a class resource, or the other players might feel slighted because the fighter is suddenly so cool people will beg to follow him, but they've been doing the exact same things, and been just as important, but they don't have anyone clamoring to follow them.

I just don't see this as a solution to the problem.

As I've mentioned before, the reason this worked in 1st and 2nd ed is that the setting assumed magic-users were scary and not to be trusted by the common folk. So when said common folk looked for a hero, they looked at the fighter and flocked to him. This logically doesn't work if you have different setting assumptions.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I would note that there is a big difference between what you propose and the Temple of the Gods spell.

The example was to show that there's already features that generate instant effects that would be improbable in specific setting, not that there's features instantly gathering followers. In Barovia or Darksun, the gods are powerless: suddenly a temple of said god appears with the full panoply of powers. It makes no sense in-setting, but its there. It can even become permanent!

And, I just have a problem with earning NPCs as a class feature. It feels weird. We don't even use the retainers and such for nobility, because having three extra NPCs following the party into danger doesn't make sense.

But that is a personal preference. Its not my favorite version of the high level fighter neither, but its a possibility. The noble already give 3 powerless retainers, beastmasters, chain warlocks, wildfire druids, battlesmith artificers all have suddenly a follower by the means of magic or mundane feature.

And the fighter suddenly gains the loyalty of 10 to 20 people we have never met and interacted with?

There's no need to have 10 to 20. My idea would be 2-3 non-combat retainers (like the Noble feature) and 1 ''pick from two'' companion, like the beastmaster. At high level, say 11+.

Example:

Companions
At Xth level, when you finish a long rest in a settlement, you can have a small band of daring initiates ask to join your cause.
They are friendly to you and your companions, and obey your commands. You determine the creatures appearance; your choice has no effect on its game statistics.

You have the service of four retainers. These retainers can be attendants or messengers, and one might be a majordomo. One of your retainers is a Companion who serves at your side in combat, aiding you in exchange for training on his or her own path to fame. See this creature's game statistics in the Companion stat block. Your three remaining retainers might include a groom to care for your horse or a servant who polishes your armor (and even helps you put it on). All retainers but your Companion can perform mundane tasks for you, but they do not fight for you, will not follow you into obviously dangerous areas (such as dungeons), and will leave if they are frequently endangered or abused.

In combat, the Companion shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take one of the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action.

The companion follows the same dying rules as a normal character. If it has died within the last hour, you can use a healer's kit as an action to revive it, provided you are within 5 feet of it and succeed on a DC 15 Wis (Medicine) check. The Companion returns to life after 1 minute with all its hit points restored.

At the end of a long rest in a settlement, you can recruit a new retainer or companion unless you already have three retainers and a companion.

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
Medium humanoid, neutral
Armor Class 15 (chain shirt)
Hit Points equal the companion's Constitution modifier + your Intelligence OR charisma modifier + five times your level in this class
Speed 40 ft.
14 (+2)	12 (+1)	14 (+2)	4 (-3)	10 (+0)	6 (-2)
Saving Throws Dex +3, Con +4
Skills Athletics +4, Perception +4
Damage Immunities
Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion
Senses , passive Perception 14
Languages understands the languages you speak
Might of the Master. The following numbers increase by 1 when your proficiency bonus increases by 1: the companion skill and saving throw bonuses (above), the bonuses to hit and damage of its rend attack, and the number of hit points restored by its first aid action (below). Vigilant. The companion can't be surprised.
Actions (Requires Your Bonus Action)
Longsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target you can see. Hit: 1d8 + 2 slashing damage. First Aid (3/Day). The companion restore 2d8 + 2 hit points to itself or to one ally within 5 feet of it.
Reactions
Deflect Attack. The companion imposes disadvantage on the attack roll of one creature it can see that is within 5 feet of it, provided the attack roll is against a creature other than the defender.