D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

MGibster · Aug 25, 2020

And honestly, I think this is why I think WotC is better off working on new settings rather than trying to keep the old ones alive. Sure, I loved Dark Sun, but I'm not the same person I was in 1991 and D&D isn't the same game.

Eyes of Nine · Aug 25, 2020

Is there a possibility that Gygax family still owns the "Greyhawk" IP in some way?

The Glen · Aug 25, 2020

Eyes of Nine said:
Is there a possibility that Gygax family still owns the "Greyhawk" IP in some way?

No. When TSR was bought all of the settings went to Wizards.

FrozenNorth · Aug 25, 2020

Snarf Zagyg said:
Bob: Yo, Frozen North. I'd like you to watch this TV Show.

Frozen North: Okay, what is it like?

Bob: Well, it's kind of like that show you like... Batman. Except instead of being an Adam West "camp" take on Batman, it's actually a gritty take on Batman.

Frozen North: Okay! So it's exactly like every Batman. It's a campy Batman. Got it!

One, the Adam West Batman was the best Batman. That’s just obvious.

Secondly, doesn’t this just prove my point? Aren’t the “revivalists” like fans of West’s Batman, seeking a Batman remake that is more faithful to the West version, despite the fact that many interesting settings have come out in the interim and that its heyday was 40 years ago?

I love West’s Batman. I don’t think it needs a revival.

Snarf Zagyg · Aug 25, 2020

TwoSix said:
To move away from the oft-productive topic of food metaphors for a second, let me ask some questions:

1) What specific elements of Greyhawk would need to be maintained to capture the idea of being "respectful to tradition"?
2) What elements of 5e could be introduced into Greyhawk in a way that respects the Greyhawk tradition? What elements would specifically need to be excluded?
3) What novel concepts could be added to Greyhawk that both enhance the Greyhawk flavor and add to the 5e experience?

I cannot speak for everyone, but for myself- this isn't easy; because there isn't a single aspect that is dispositive. It really isn't about complete fidelity, as much as the gestalt.

To use the dragonborn example that always comes up. Dragonborn, in my opinion, are not native to the Flanaess. If the 5e version of Greyhawk just ignored that issue or retconned them into the existing area, I would be angry- because that would show a lack of care in dealing with a fundamental distinction, and a lack of respect for the setting.

But the issue isn't dragonborn. If someone took the time to either integrate them in a meaningful way into the setting or to provide a quick sidebar as to how "non-native Dragonborn" could be used, I would have no issue with that, even if they were just a "rumored Kingdom to the east."

It speaks to the deeper issue, thought, of what the "gestalt" of the setting is. Some of the aspects of Greyhawk that can be played up (but not all) would be:

A. Humanocentric
B. Swords & Sorcery (think Conan if you don't have a background, not LoTR).
C. Gritty
D. "Low Magic" (to acknowledge what @Minigiant wrote, GH isn't low magic per se, as it is kind of the opposite of Eberron in some ways; magic is rare, but what magic there is can be very powerful.)
E. "Grey" morality. This is the whole, "Good nations can fight each other, neutral is a balance, evil often triumphs," sort of thing.
F. Last points of light of civilization holding on (a somewhat post-apocalyptic vibe), with decaying greatness (Great Kingdom).

.... there's more. The point is, I want a product that really goes hard into some aspect, or aspects, of this setting, while re-introducing today's gamers to some of the legends of the past (the artifacts, the names, the places, the crazy Nazi monks, and so on).

Snarf Zagyg · Aug 25, 2020

FrozenNorth said:
One, the Adam West Batman was the best Batman. That’s just obvious.

Secondly, doesn’t this just prove my point? Aren’t the “revivalists” like fans of West’s Batman, seeking a Batman remake that is more faithful to the West version, despite the fact that many interesting settings have come out in the interim and that its heyday was 40 years ago?

I love West’s Batman. I don’t think it needs a revival.

Bless your cotton socks.

We should probably add, "Doesn't this just prove my point," to the "You do realize" thread in terms of written phrases that are both superfluous and annoying to other people.

If I am disagreeing with you (I am), then it is highly unlikely that what I wrote really does prove your point.

1. No, campaign settings are not Batman.

2. The best media versions of Batman are from Batman:TAS (voiced by Kevin Conroy, of course) and, if you're looking for an "alt Batman," then the tragically underserved Batman Beyond.

3. The best comics Batman is, of course, Frank Mil... HA NO! Neal Adams & Denny O'Neill really re-established the Batman I love.

4. I would love to see a new, camp version of Batman (that's Adam West). We've had a long run of gritty, maybe it's time? You can't live off of GrimDark forever.

5. Again, Greyhawk is not Batman. I AM BATMAN.

Wolfram stout · Aug 25, 2020

I kind of hate to come up with this point, and maybe someone can destroy my logic here. But rather than comparing Greyhawk with Conan and S&S, wouldn't a better comparison be Game of Thrones with more fantasy (races and monsters) and slightly more magic (Classes and items) ?

While not perfect, I think it is close and could be used to show what Greyhawk offers to younger players who are not overly familiar with Greyhawk, the world of Conan, or S&S in general. I should have quoted the poster who talked about the Tension of Greyhawk.

Snarf Zagyg · Aug 25, 2020

Wolfram stout said:
I kind of hate to come up with this point, and maybe someone can destroy my logic here. But rather than comparing Greyhawk with Conan and S&S, wouldn't a better comparison be Game of Thrones with more fantasy (races and monsters) and slightly more magic (Classes and items) ?

While not perfect, I think it is close and could be used to show what Greyhawk offers to younger players who are not overly familiar with Greyhawk, the world of Conan, or S&S in general. I should have quoted the poster who talked about the Tension of Greyhawk.

Not a bad point.

Although from what I've seen online, I'm sure that someone would say that it's like Game of Thrones, and the usual Greyhawk haters will come out and say, "Yeah, it's just like Season 8, AMIRITE?"

Helldritch · Aug 25, 2020

I agree with Snarf, Greyhawk is not batman.
When GG was shown out of TSR, it is as if anything that was clearly Gygaxian was like the pest. It had to be forgotten asap. They did their best to ensure that future gamers would forget.

For a long time, the original box set and even the From the Ashes were impossible to come buy as physical copies and pirated digital ones were of low quality (as is almost every single pirated pdf I have seen). 3ed treatment of Greyhawk was underwhelming to say the least. Thus, it is not that Greyhawk could not have fans, but rather that potential fans were turned downed.

Isn't it strange that whenever I get to bewarched playing in Greyhawk that young gamers get curious and interested in the setting many claims is reserved for nostalgic grognards like me? That with the guils they get the book asap and even go so far as to print the maps and laminate them?

If presented correctly, Greyhawk is as interesting as any other settings.

Ho, and Dragonborns are easily introduced as dimensional travelers/refugees. I placed their arrival just south of Nyrond. Their arrival was seen as bad omen until the king saw the number of lawful good Paladins in the dragonborn nation. They were venerating Bahamuth, the platinum dragon and the tenets of their religion were close to those of Heironeous and Mayaheim. Nyrond allied with them and they are now accepted as members of the good races. This integration of the dragonborn was done in a small mini campaign and it was quite fun to play it out. If I could do it, anyone can.