Pathfinder 2E Regarding the complexity of Pathfinder 2

[CapnZapp]

Hot damn...

If two floating modifiers is too much, Pathfinder isn't right for you.

Ayup.

Just throwing examples out there to allow each and everyone to judge the game's complexity level for themselves - there's too much "it's not that complicated" and "all these games are complex" relativism going around, and the best antidote for that is to provide examples taken directly from actual play.

 

[CapnZapp]

This has to be an exaggeration. Right?

I would say no. If anything, things easily get more intricate.

I'm taking examples from my actual play experience as opposed to constructing theoretical "worst-case" scenarios.

 

[CapnZapp]

Honestly, if I weren't using an app to build the character, I might have rage quit during character creation.

The Pathbuilder 2 app is a godsend. Paizo should be thanking its developer...

 

[CapnZapp]

I actually find character creation quite easy.

Yes, at level 1 you have the least choice space available. Still, not everybody finds it easy to browse half a dozen supplements, looking over scores of feats, already before the first session.

A party with only the Core Rulebook available has it easy. But since all the feats are available online for free as well as in supplements, it is much harder to restrict your campaign to "CRB only" than in 5E.

(If there's any game that would have benefited from a "PHB+1" rule, it is this one... but no, every source book is created with the assumption all its "common" content is readily available to every group)

 

[FrozenNorth]

That is mostly accurate (I don’t think there is a general feat that lets you pick a skill feat as skill feats are already general feats). But it plays a lot simpler than this makes it sound because the feats are sectioned off so that for most feat selections you will only need to choose between a handful.

I checked and you are correct. Skill feats are a subset of general feats, so when you get a general feat you can choose a skill feat, but not vice-versa.

 

[glass]

Ayup.

Just throwing examples out there to allow each and everyone to judge the game's complexity level for themselves - there's too much "it's not that complicated" and "all these games are complex" relativism going around, and the best antidote for that is to provide examples taken directly from actual play.

None of these examples have anything to do with actual play. You are never choosing between the various feats that let you partially break the siloing, because they themselves are siloed.

For example, Natural Ambition is the feat that allows you to take a 1st-level class feat for one of your ancestry feats. It is a human feat, so if you are not a human (or half-elf or half-orc) you do not need to consider it. If you are not at a level where you get an ancestry feat, you do not have to consider it. If you are of a level where an extra 1st-level class feat is irrelevant you do not need to need to consider it (what level that is will vary, but you can probably not worry about it at level 17 if not long before).

_
glass.

 

[FrozenNorth]

None of these examples have anything to do with actual play. You are never choosing between the various feats that let you partially break the siloing, because they themselves are siloed.

For example, Natural Ambition is the feat that allows you to take a 1st-level class feat for one of your ancestry feats. It is a human feat, so if you are not a human (or half-elf or half-orc) you do not need to consider it.

Racial (Ancestry) feats are siloed.

If you are at a level where you get a General Feat, you could pick one of the roughly 35 General Feats. Or, since Skill feats are a subset of General feats, you could choose one of the 170 skill feats. Or you could choose the Ancestral Paragon General feat, which allows you to choose an additional Ancestry feat.

Likewise, if you are at a level where you get a Class feat, you can choose one of the Class Feats corresponding to your class at your level or lower. Or, you could take a Dedication feat (basically multiclassing), or you could take an Archetype feat. So, some siloeing, but still a bunch of choices.

 

[kenada]

AT this point I'll just point out that Shattered Star is a PF1 adventure.

Sorry, I should clarify. I mentioned Shattered Star to contextualize how long it’s been since I ran an AP. I think I ran it around the time it was being released.

PF2 is an entirely different beast, and much more deadly, if I remember my 3E days correctly.

I think part of that perception is hard encounters in PF2 are reliably difficult across groups due to diminished benefit of system mastery, so people are surprised by that. Even though damage in PF2 is more swingy than PF1 due to the crit rules, the new dying rules make it comparedly leas deadly than PF1.

We’ve run into the problem PF2’s rules were designed to address. When the group fought the Stag Lord in Kingmaker, he shot the wizard once and didn’t drop him, then he shot the wizard again and took the wizard past negative Con. If the wizard had been one level lower or higher, he would have survived.

Now in PF2, if a PC gets wrecked by a creature, I know the group will have a chance to save their friend (and the player can spend a hero point if necessary to survive). While PCs go down more, they feel less i danger of actually being killed.

Admittedly, there is some variance with the encounter-building guidelines depending on how tactically savvy a group is, but tactics are easier to learn than char ops. They also pay dividends immediately (in the next fight).

When we started the Extinction Curse AP as written, we were all shell-shocked at the unrelenting difficulty curve. And that's six fellows with probably 120 years of D&D experience between us...

Are official adventures going just a little too heavy on the higher-threat encounters?

 

[kenada]

The Pathbuilder 2 app is a godsend. Paizo should be thanking its developer...

We’ve been using Hero Lab Online, but yeah. My players aren’t good with fiddly stuff, so having an app handle all that, especially when we’re in combat is incredibly helpful.

 

[kenada]

A party with only the Core Rulebook available has it easy. But since all the feats are available online for free as well as in supplements, it is much harder to restrict your campaign to "CRB only" than in 5E.

(If there's any game that would have benefited from a "PHB+1" rule, it is this one... but no, every source book is created with the assumption all its "common" content is readily available to every group)

Just declare that everything outside of the CRB (or whatever preferred sources) is rare. You still retain the option of including something as a treasure or a reward, but character building doesn’t get out of control.