D&D 5E Jeremy Crawford Discusses Details on Custom Origins

[Chaosmancer]

So Tolkien had to be in lock step
On every detail to be considered influenced by or to draw from the Eddas?

No.

But if the Eddas don't describe the Elves as more Dexterous.

And Tolkien described them as essentially superior in every way (not just more dexterous)

Then how is DnD breaking with the Eddas and Tolkien by changing Elves from being more dexterous than humans to something else? Neither source made that claim, so calling on them to defend that claim makes little sense.

 

[Guest User]

You're making the same mistake that a lot of people do with regards to "almost all PC races." That is, you think "five out of six races is a lot! Clearly this was all about Tolkien!" That's the wrong way to look at it; the races are there, but add very little to the game (again, level limits) and seem more important than they are. So yes, modest.

So your argument is that Level caps meant a Cap on the importance of how Race was to the game?

Being forced to retire your character, or the game having a Hard Cap to your power...is not just a modest impact. The fact that those level caps reinforce the very notions found in Tolkien is not a modest coincidence.

D&D could have been designed using Fritz Leiber's Newhon Races...it wasnt...that is also not a modest coincidence.

I have always supposed Tolkien chose Elves and Dwarves as a focus of his eponymous "Mythology" is due to the fact that there is no a large body of literature dealing with Elves or Dwarves. It was relatively untapped territories for Tolkien to explore.

 

[Guest User]

So Tolkien had to be in lock step
On every detail to be considered influenced by or to draw from the Eddas?

No the point was Tolkien picked two "Races",Dwarves and Elves, that play no large role in written myths.

So your whole "there is a millennia of tradition about Elves and Dwarves" is not supported by the literature.

 

[Cadence]

No.

But if the Eddas don't describe the Elves as more Dexterous.

And Tolkien described them as essentially superior in every way (not just more dexterous)

Then how is DnD breaking with the Eddas and Tolkien by changing Elves from being more dexterous than humans to something else? Neither source made that claim, so calling on them to defend that claim makes little sense.

Were Legalos' people played up as noticably more intelligent, wise, or charismatic? Strength doesn't seem to be an emphasis. Dexterity was though:

"Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow – an Elf.

’With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.

‘Farewell!’ he said to Gandalf. ‘I go to find the Sun!’ Then swift as a runner over firm sand he shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand he passed them, and sped into the distance, and vanished round the rocky turn. [LotR, i, 3, 'The Ring Goes South']"

 

[Warpiglet-7]

No the point was Tolkien picked two "Races",Dwarves and Elves, that play no large role in written myths.

So your whole "there is a millennia of tradition about Elves and Dwarves" is not supported by the literature.

Ok: IF I agreed with this—-I don’t—-nearly a century then. More importantly, how would a survey of gamers go?

Would you consider elves more graceful and dexterous on average than humans?

what is the trope? You know the answer.

secondly, was Tolkien drawing from ancient European myth?

you know the answer there too.

if getting into minutiae is the next step, respectfully count me out. I stand by both points which I think are beyond argument.

 

[Don Durito]

The Noldor were somewhat more powerful than Legolas, but if Gygax's elves were influenced by Tolkien it was no doubt through Legolas as that would have been what he, or perhaps more likely his players, were familiar with.

However, I've seen arguments to the effect that Eldar in Moorcock's work or Poul Anderson's elves were just as much of an influence.

I fail to see the relevance of any of this. Other than the urgency of correcting people who are wrong on the internet - why does this matter?

Elves have had bonuses to Dexterity for decades now. At this point why does it matter where it originally came from?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Were Legalos' people played up as noticably more intelligent, wise, or charismatic? Strength doesn't seem to be an emphasis. Dexterity was though:

Um... yes?

The Elves were considered very wise and intelligent, having knowledge and secrets that none of the other mortal races contained. In fact, I do believe that they were also the only race to have kept and continued to use their rings of Power, when all the other races did not.

Charismatic? Of course. They all universally were more beautiful, more captivating, they had the most beautiful of poetry and their singing voices were divine.

Even strength could be argued depending on when and who you were talking about, as a google search shows me that there is evidence on both sides of Elves being physically stronger than men, especially in the First Age before they began to fade away.

So... sure, while Dexterity was visibile in Legolas when he was doing physical actions, they were superior in most other ways as well.

 

[Cadence]

Um... yes?

The Elves were considered very wise and intelligent, having knowledge and secrets that none of the other mortal races contained. In fact, I do believe that they were also the only race to have kept and continued to use their rings of Power, when all the other races did not.

There were several groups of elves though. The Noldor were certainly known for their intelligence and making magical things. It may have been for the Sindar (I'm not recalling). Was it true for the Silvan (Nandor) elves? How much of the Noldor knowledge came from learning from the Valar?

(Is Noldor vs. Silvan in Tolkien the High vs. Wood elves of D&D?).

 

[Maxperson]

There were several groups of elves though. The Noldor were certainly known for their intelligence and making magical things. It may have been for the Sindar (I'm not recalling). Was it true for the Silvan (Nandor) elves? How much of the Noldor knowledge came from learning from the Valar?

Almost all of it. They learned from the Valar and Maiar and then added to it. Before they went to Aman, the Noldor couldn't have made any of what came.

 

[Azzy]

So Tolkien had to be in lock step
On every detail to be considered influenced by or to draw from the Eddas?

Given that the post of yours that I quoted implied that super-agile elves were something that Tolkien inherited from mythology and that you're arguing for super-agile elves, your above response is like trying to have your cake and eat it, too. You also ignore that Tolkien's elves weren't simply super-agile, they were superhuman.